Religious intolerance or freedom of speech.

[Papewaio]

As Adrian wisely said earlier, it is the unemployed, un-educated, bored lowlives that are causing most of the trouble - organized by fanatics.

In Indonesia they rent a crowd... t-shirt with slogans mass produced, banners, posters... the guys get little more then a couple of dollars and a free lunch.

[Red Peasant]

P.S. About the 'Vatican' statement:
It was made by a Cardinal, who is a retired diplomat. He does not reflect the official position of the Vatican.

It may not be 'official' but we have seen lots of senior representatives of the major religions over here (Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, etc, etc, blah, blah) wringing their hands over the 'respect' and 'rights' due to religions. One should not criticize religion is the message that I am picking up from all of them. Sanctimonious tripe.
I'm British, and if I want to poke fun at religion, then I'll bloody well do so. These Danish cartoons were making a satirical point: Mohammed was a prophet of peace, yet many of his present followers condone mass-murder and genocide, with throat-cutting being a credible religious policy. They are sick, and their so-called prophet did not preach this message as far as I can tell. If we can't criticize religion through humour and satirical mockery, then when can we do so? Should it be strictly verboten, censored, off-limits? I don't think so.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Mohammed was a prophet of peace

Thats very debatable and a big problem with Islam. It is too easliy seen the other way both by Muslims and others.

[Viking]

I feel that the UN will do nothing in this case, as it has no economic or technological clout of its own other than that which it is allowed by its disparate members. The EU must take the lead if it sees itself as a credible entity, or embryonic state. In fact, this is one thing that will unite almost all Europeans and if the EU can't harness that feeling then it cannot pretend to represent the peoples of Europe, or not in its present form at least.

edit. this concerns all European states, even Norway which is not a member of the EU.

Yeah, I think EU is the way to go. We`re also demanding money for the damage(burnt down, that is) they did to our embassy, though that is of course only for the sake of principle.

Not sure what Denmark is doing with this.

[rory_20_uk]

I thought that the Koran also states "if you can not convert by the word, convert by the sword". For a peaceful prophet there was one hell of a lot of warfare going on in his name when he surfaced.

Not that Islam is unique. Christ apparently was there for peace, but still we got to the stage of killing people so they'd not sin - making murder and indeed genocide an act of kindness.

~smoking:

[solypsist]

Interesting editorial from some guy over at Kos who is living in the mid-east:

The most recent Hajj occurred during the first half of January 2006, precisely when the "outrage" over the Danish cartoons began in earnest. There were a number of stampedes, called "tragedies" in the press, during the Hajj which killed several hundred pilgrims. I say "tragedies" in quotation marks because there have been similar "tragedies" during the Hajj and each time, the Saudi government promises to improve security and facilitation of movement to avoid these. Over 251 pilgrims were killed during the 2004 Hajj alone in the same area as the one that killed 350 pilgrims in 2006. These were not unavoidable accidents, they were the results of poor planning by the Saudi government.

And while the deaths of these pilgrims was a mere blip on the traditional western media's radar, it was a huge story in the Muslim world. Most of the pilgrims who were killed came from poorer countries such as Pakistan, where the Hajj is a very big story. Even the most objective news stories were suddenly casting Saudi Arabia in a very bad light and they decided to do something about it.

Their plan was to go on a major offensive against the Danish cartoons. The 350 pilgrims were killed on January 12 and soon after, Saudi newspapers (which are all controlled by the state) began running up to 4 articles per day condemning the Danish cartoons. The Saudi government asked for a formal apology from Denmark. When that was not forthcoming, they began calling for world-wide protests. After two weeks of this, the Libyans decided to close their embassy in Denmark. Then there was an attack on the Danish embassy in Indonesia. And that was followed by attacks on the embassies in Syria and then Lebanon.

Many European papers, including the right-wing German Springer media group, fanned the flames by reprinting the cartoons. And now you have the situation we are in today, with lots of video footage of angry crowds and the storming of embassies and calls for boycotts of Danish and European products.

Saudi Arabia's influence on the Sunni Muslim world is incalculable. The sermons from high-ranking Muslim clerics are read and studied by Muslims around the world, who in turn give sermons to their local congregations. While the Saudis do not have direct control of the world's Sunni flocks, their influence is similar somewhat to the Pope's pronouncements and the sermons that Catholic priests give to their flocks the following Sundays. Saudi Arabia also finances a number of Muslim "study centers", where all the literature and material is provided by the Saudi government, filled with hatred for Jews and other extremely racist material. For them to promote an idea based on religion, including "outrage" at some cartoons published months earlier, is standard operating procedure.

[Red Peasant]

Thats very debatable and a big problem with Islam. It is too easliy seen the other way both by Muslims and others.

I'm being generous, all 'Religionists' claim this.

To be loving, peaceful, and the ONE TRUTH!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Now heres a cartoon that says it all

[Major Robert Dump]

HAHA Jordan editors arrested for reprinting the cartoon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4680948.stm


Mr Momani's arrest came earlier on Saturday, a day after Jordanian King Abdullah condemned the cartoons as an unnecessary abuse of freedom of speech.

This sounds like the really old people who write into the local papers who say crap like "I didn't fight in WWII for the rights of America so people could use freedom of speech to criticize the government"


Oh the irony of abusing free speech. I'm sure the alternative to free speech would be sooooo much better, especially for the King.

[Krusader]

The Muhammed Pictures controversy is also followed by Norwegian newspapers and the torching of the Norwegian embassy seems to have made most Norwegians a bit angry.

As for the Middleeastern governments this is a perfect "ventilation" to stem internal anger at the government away from. The good old "Use an external threat to suppress any internal troubles against the regime" trick.

[Adrian II]

Oh the irony of abusing free speech. I'm sure the alternative to free speech would be sooooo much better, especially for the King.

I believe the London police have something to answer for as well.

Protesters in London who carried placards threatening suicide bombings and massacres in revenge for the Danish cartoons satirising the prophet Muhammad are to be investigated by Scotland Yard and could face arrest.
The only arrests were of two people carrying copies of the Danish cartoons which triggered the protests. They were escorted away by officers and released without charge.

It is becoming clear that some heads should roll in London.

[InsaneApache]

It is becoming clear that some heads should roll in London

*tea spat all over my keyboard....sends bill to Adrian*

You naughty man you.

[Fragony]

Oh lollipop London is where it's at





They sure react in a most passionate way, how exotic

Murder, death, slaughter, behead, cut, stab, teh rage!

All praise the multicult, but hey, shoarma tastes good.

[Samurai Waki]

I bet if you fed them some chocolate and gave em' nap, they might no be so grouchy. These guys are acting like little kids, I think the UK should enforce a law that makes these guys take a 5 minute time out in the corner to think about what they've done.

[Fragony]

I bet if you fed them some chocolate and gave em' nap, they might no be so grouchy.

Maybe if we just fed them a 9mm milimeter between the eyes it would have better results, but I doubt you would hit anything. But alas wishfull thinking, the beardwhisperers will probably pump a few extra millions and tell those backward goats it are really their social conditions that are to blame.

awwwww, he wants to behead us, how adorable!

[Navaros]

Well at least I can now see the irony.

To protest a cartoon that depects a religious leader as a terrorist. Some of the so called followers of the religious leader are going to show the rest of the world the falseness of these cartoons by the followers engaging in terrorist acts.

I wonder if they ever watched the Life of Brian and thought it was a documentary?

I didn't know where to jump in on this thread so this seemed as good a post as any.

Standing up for one's religion is not terrorism.

Face it, protests don't mean anything. They never accomplish anything. No one cares about protests. Instead of wasting time with a bunch of useless crap like protests, Muslims will take actions that actually get noticed and have their voices be heard loud, clear, and universally.

Muslims will not tolerate their holy figures being mocked. That is to be commended.

It was common knowledge that to mock Muslim holy figures is to incur the wrath of all Muslims who truly believe in what their Holy Book says. They do not take it lightly as most so-called Christians these days do. Hence the paper and cartoonist responsible for that filth should have fully seen this all coming.

I'm sure all real Muslims would have the good taste to never watch blasphemous trash like "Life of Brian". If they did have the misfortune to watch it, it would incur similar wrath in their hearts. And rightly so in my view.

[Fragony]

Muslims will not tolerate their holy figures being mocked. That is to be commended.

Muslims should realise where they are. I don't care what they do in their own perverted part of the world but here we have something called civilisation. They are guests and should stfu when adults are talking, muslims will not tolerate anything that isn't muslim anyway. Muslims in Europe should lighten up and behave like real people instead of a rabid mob, maybe their are just too many shiny objects here which they can't deal with.

[Navaros]

Not a dig on Islam, but when Christians and Jews are potrayed in this sort of disgusting way, you don't see so much violence as you do when Muslims are disrespected by secular media and society. Can someone explain to me why the phenomenom of violence in the Islamic Faith seems more prevalent in these sort of issues?

Because generally speaking, Christians these days do not believe in the Bible with all of their hearts. And they usually somehow have the misconception that they are supposed to act like pansies and tolerate disgusting depictions of their holy figures. Which of course, they are not. Christians have allowed their hearts and minds to be beaten into submission by decades of biased media indoctrination.

Muslims on the other hands, take their faith much more seriously, believe it with all of their hearts, and hence will defend it with ample vigor. They will not backdown or have their spirits broken just because some idiotic newspapers tell them to en masse.

I applaud the Muslims for this conviction.

[Adrian II]

Because generally speaking, Christians these days do not believe in the Bible with all of their hearts. And they usually somehow have the misconception that they are supposed to act like pansies and tolerate disgusting depictions of their holy figures. Which of course, they are not. Christians have allowed their hearts and minds to be beaten into submission by decades of biased media indoctrination.

Muslims on the other hands, take their faith much more seriously, believe it with all of their hearts, and hence will defend it with ample vigor. They will not backdown or have their spirits broken just because some idiotic newspapers tell them to en masse.

I applaud the Muslims for this conviction.

Congrats, you have managed to write a post that is deeply offensive to Muslims and Christians all at the same time.

[Adrian II]

Muslims in Europe should lighten up and behave like real people instead of a rabid mob, maybe their are just too many shiny objects here which they can't deal with.

My dear boy, I don't for the love of me understand what you are talking about. There are millions of Muslims in Europe who all go about their daily business without shouting, demonstrating, siging petitions or calling for anyone's execution.

[Red Peasant]

Lol.
Bigoted Religionistas always stick together on this kind of issue (before they go back to killing each other). They think they have a right to be beyond criticism and mockery. Think again sonny.

[Navaros]

Muslims should realise where they are. I don't care what they do in their own perverted part of the world but here we have something called civilisation. They are guests and should stfu when adults are talking, muslims will not tolerate anything that isn't muslim anyway. Muslims in Europe should lighten up and behave like real people instead of a rabid mob, maybe their are just too many shiny objects here which they can't deal with.

If Muslims were not instigated into behaving as a rabid mob, then they would not.

It's pretty simple: mess with them, and they mess with you back.

Can't really blame them for that in my view.

[Red Peasant]

If Muslims were not instigated into behaving as a rabid mob, then they would not.

It's pretty simple: mess with them, and they mess with you back.

Can't really blame them for that in my view.

Over satirical cartoons?!! Get Real.

They were published something like five months ago, and now suddenly this ridiculous hysteria and violence. This situation has been engineered by certain muslims for their own twisted reasons, and the Danes have little to do with it.

[Navaros]

Over satirical cartoons?!! Get Real.

They were published something like five months ago, and now suddenly this ridiculous hysteria and violence. This situation has been engineered by certain muslims for their own twisted reasons, and the Danes have little to do with it.

The age of them does not matter; they are just as digusting regardless of their age. Similar things have happened in New York and other places in the USA when some foolish men in the USA thought they could get it away with posting derogatory 'art' of the Prophet. This reaction from Muslims is nothing new, and it will happen time and time again any time something of this nature occurs.

Obviously they are much more than "satirical cartoons". Rather, they are a sick violation of something deeply sacred.

[Fragony]

If Muslims were not instigated into behaving as a rabid mob, then they would not.

It's pretty simple: mess with them, and they mess with you back.

Can't really blame them for that in my view.

Don't mess with them, and they will mess with you anyway, we simply cannot meet their demands.

My dear boy, I don't for the love of me understand what you are talking about. There are millions of Muslims in Europe who all go about their daily business without shouting, demonstrating, siging petitions or calling for anyone's execution.

Still early, probably sleeping.

[caravel]

While I cannot agree with the typcasting of all muslims as raging fanatics, I can understand some of the points raised by Navaros, that those muslims in question are acting in defense of their own religion. But does this defense require violent behaviour and attacks against neutral parties? Are they not just as bad as those that published these images when they will burn european national flags, destroy a consulate building and run about toting guns with little excuse? Denmark, a country that has hardly offended anyone, is hardly part of the bush/blair "empire". It was Denmark's free press that published this, not the Danes and not their government. The press is not the voice of the government. Unlike islamic states (and many non islamic ones for that matter), Denmark has a real democracy with a press that is free to comment on, and criticize almost anything, it is not bound by religion or government control. Have these muslims considered, that when they burn the national flag of the majority of Danes that did not support or endorse this publication in any way, that they are targeting an entire people for the actions of a tiny minority?

Obviously not, but as usual the fanatical zealots that endorse suicide bombers, "beheadings" and the burnings of flags and effigies, are whipping up the greater majority of the ignorant masses into a fury. Those involved understand nothing about the west whatosever apart from what their media and these manipulative clerics want them to know. The worst.

Those that are living in western european countries as asylum seekers or immigrants and engage in such actions as vandalism, incitement of hatred etc are even worse in my opinion. Such individuals have absolutely no respect for the country that has taken them in, they are there as abusers and nothing more.

Those protesting in london with placards such as "Behead the one who insults the prophet" and "Free speech go to hell" need to ask themselves the question: "Do I belong in a civilised western european democracy?"

[Fragony]

hmmm,

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim
outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Now are we just that civil are or they nuts? Yes, we and they.

Oh wait, fresh from the press. Priest in Turkey gets shot to death. No, well you get it.

[Radier]

Oh lollipop London is where it's at





They sure react in a most passionate way, how exotic

Murder, death, slaughter, behead, cut, stab, teh rage!

All praise the multicult, but hey, shoarma tastes good.

Wow, time to send some out huh? Seriously, If I was one of those english policemen I would consider beating the living hell out of the extremists... They probably were tempted.

[Lemur]

Best quote yet:

"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," said Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra.

[Ser Clegane]

Now are we just that civil are or they nuts? Yes, we and they.

Oh wait, fresh from the press. Priest in Turkey gets shot to death. No, well you get it.

Well - I guess a lot (probably the vast majority) of muslims neither show outrage now, nor did they when the other things happened that you listed.

They probably aren't very happy about the cartoons and a lot of them probably arent't very happy about murder in the name of islam either - I guess most of them (like most Westerners) are just trying to live their lives without making ruckus on the streets.

A personal question, Fragony - as you mention from time to time that you sometimes participate in "public outrage" against immigrants - how often do you go on the street and join protests against right-wingers, e.g. those who hunt and beat up innocent immigrants? Have you ever been outraged about such incidents, or do you consider the beating of immigrants to be an "understandable reaction"?