Naval sims?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Are there any good naval sims in any subperiod of 15th to 20th century. I'm looking either for a first/third person game with a dynamic campaign, or a strategy game (with a dynamic campaign of course). Which ones are worth checking out?

[Androo]

Well I have spent a little time with Enigma: Rising Tide and quite like it. It is a first person sim set in an alternate history 1930's. Understandably, a lot of people shy away from it because of its rather farfetched context [Germany won the Great War and occupied France and the UK; the remnants of the Royal Navy and the British Empire have allied with the Japanese; so the three factions are 1) Imperial Germany, 2) Japan/Royal Navy in Exile and 3) the USA]. One can play a campaign, linear I believe, for any of the factions in either their surface or submarine fleets. This alternate history was not for me, but no problem: thanks to the efforts of a member of the community ("timetraveller") textures in the game are easily moddable (if I can do it, anybody can do it). The first day I had it, I exchanged the Sino-British flag (ugh!) for a proper RN White Ensign of my making. I'm not an expert, but I believe the ship models are quite accurate. Several former Naval types are members of the community and though they debate the minutiae of ship performance in the game, overall they seem tolerant of its modelling. Stalwart fellow that he is, Timetraveller has also produced a brilliant mission builder. Now, one can build missions with random events, so the mission can have an incredible number of permutations and possible results. And then these missions can be scripted into campaigns, complete with briefings which sport newspaper front pages with headlines written and photos provided by you. The story-telling possibilities are pretty impressive.The gold edition has extra ships and is also ready for the addition of the mission builder without patching.
1) screenshots at Gamespy
2)screen shots of Gold Edition at Gamespy

3)E:RT community forum.

If anybody wants more info, let me know.

[Watchman]

As far as modern naval warfare goes, there's always the legendary Harpoon family. Something of an aquired taste; I've tried one of them and while it was quite immersive, I decided it wasn't really my thing. Taught me a whole lot of the whys and hows of modern navies in a very short time though. Most of the scenarios I've seen center around late 20th century, many of them "what ifs" that for the most part suggested that while their makers may have had a very good grasp of the dynamics of naval strategy, their understanding of world politics in general sucks quite horribly...

India goes to war with the UK over dominance of the Indian Ocean ? The EU and the USA at loggerheads over, well, something quite ridiculous ? S-u-u-u-u-re... I think you can see what I mean. Frankly, the "Cold War goes hot" ones (plus redos of actual historical incidents) were by far the most tolerable of the lot.

Aside form the often atrocious alternate-history or what-if scenarios though it's a very nice game. The earlier games of the series ought to be available in those cheap collections too.

[Spino]

Silent Hunter III is the best naval sim I've ever played and easily one of the best sims in recent years. SHIII has phenomenal graphics, gameplay and depth in addition to four different u-boat types to command, crew management & training, numerous u-boat upgrades and the coolness factor of being able to physically move around inside the submarine amongst your 3d animated crewmen (ok, you're limited to a few compartments and the conning tower but hey... every gauge rendered in 3D actually works!). A stellar dynamic campaign rounds out the list and keeps you coming back for more. Last but not least the user mods for SHIII are both impressive and numerous.

[Nelson]

The best naval sim I’ve ever played is an old title from Microprose called Task Force 1942. It is a tactical surface warfare sim covering the Guadalcanal campaign. One can play the IJN or the USN.

The real time campaign includes all of the surface combatants that were in the Pacific at the time, sans carriers. When surface groups encounter one another you fight the battle much like in Rome. It has night and day actions and weapons include primary and secondary guns and torpedoes, each of which can be directed by the player for any ship during any engagement. The graphics were terrific in 1993. Aircraft and subs are handled abstractly on the campaign map but do effect play. The campaign was dynamic and different every time. I have yet to see its’ like since. With a face-lift it would be spectacular.

Silent Hunter 3 is excellent but I much prefer handling big guns to sneaking around in a sub. Going in harms way and spotting shot fall from the gun director is the fun way to fight!

[The Marcher Lord]

I played Enigma Rising Tide too - nice storyline driven campaign, but its not dynamic. Good graphics for the time though and the later sea battles in the campaign could be pretty intense.

I'm looking forward to the release of Distant Guns. A 3d naval RTS set during the Russo-Japanese War 1904-5. Here's the website for more info.http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/home.html

[Androo]

Distant Guns does look very promising indeed. I'm also looking forward to the sequel to Enigma: Rising Tide (I don't remember what it is called- Enigma Something or Other).

[Stiuartas]

Well i remember it was good games set in carribean sea - Sea dogs, Pirates of the carribean (it was planned as Sea dogs 2). And now in Russia and Baltic states Korsary III (Corsairs 3) was released, in western countries, it will be published as Age of Pirates. Though i didn't try the last one, first two were great. Nice graphics, real sea battles.

[King Kurt]

It has always been a mystery to me why there are not more naval games. It seems such a natural area to do games of. I have always wanted to game the air/sea clashes in the Pacific from WW2, but the closest you get are flight sims - not my cup of tea as I want to play the broader strategic/ tactical side. Naval warfare throughout the 20th century is a rich vien of material from the Jutland style clashes of WW1 through to present day air/sea/sub clashes.

The best naval PC game I have ever played was over 20 years ago. It was called Carriers at War and ran on a Commodore 64. This was the USA/ IJN clashes in the Pacific and was just incredible - hours of tension as you searched for the enemy, you could bomb bases, control land and sea forces, micromanage your forces - all you would ever need. A modern version would be fantastic.

The only modern naval PC games I have played were Fighting Sail - the original, not 2 - that was excellent - and destroyer command - that is worth a look and is often in bargin bins etc - that is a ship sim with some good campaigns. It can be a bit odd at times and some things seem long winded, but overall I enjoyed it.

[Rodion Romanovich]

To summarize:

Enigma: Rising Tide:
+graphics seem good
-not historical scenario but historical ships
-not dynamical campaign

Silent Hunter III:
+dynamic campaign
+historical
+many mods
+good graphics

Task Force 1942:
+good gameplay
+historical
-no carriers

Corsairs 3
slightly older historical period


I think Silent Hunter III sounds very interesting. When it comes to Task Force 1942, which I also think sounds interesting, I couldn't find any information, screenshots or a place to buy it anywhere. Are you sure Task Force 1942 was the real name of the title, or is it so old that it's impossible to get hold of?

[English assassin]

I'm enjoying fighting steel/thunder at sea, which someone (sorry I forgot who but thanks) recommended to me a while back. I got it from these guys http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246...hatseafis.html

[Spino]

To summarize:

Enigma: Rising Tide:
+graphics seem good
-not historical scenario but historical ships
-not dynamical campaign

Silent Hunter III:
+dynamic campaign
+historical
+many mods
+good graphics

Task Force 1942:
+good gameplay
+historical
-no carriers

Corsairs 3
slightly older historical period


I think Silent Hunter III sounds very interesting. When it comes to Task Force 1942, which I also think sounds interesting, I couldn't find any information, screenshots or a place to buy it anywhere. Are you sure Task Force 1942 was the real name of the title, or is it so old that it's impossible to get hold of?

TF1942 may be a classic but for all intents and purposes it is an archaic game. We're talking about the days of floppy disks, 320x240 VGA graphics and DOS memory managing boot disks. Replace TF1942 with Fighting Steel which is essentially the former's spiritual successor. The best part about Fighting Steel is that is has received continuous upgrades via a massive mod called the Fighting Steel Project (version 10.3 was released last month). FSP doesn't simply contain graphics improvements and tweaks to the games data files, it actually contains coded improvements to the AI! Apparently SSI legally handed this product over to the modding community to do with as they wish. The mod is free but costs $$$ if you want NWS to ship it to you on a CD.

FSP Download links (also has link to last official FS patch)...
http://forums.navalwarfare.org/showthread.php?t=34

FSP forum...
http://forums.navalwarfare.org/forumdisplay.php?f=9

The homepage...
http://www.navalwarfare.org/~content/index.html

The good news is there is another naval sim in the works called Distant Guns which deals with the Russo-Japanese war of 1904/05. It is being made by two established wargame designers and looks to be a real gem.

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/pub...stantguns.html

[Androo]

English Assassin & Spino, the FSP does look pretty neat. Obviously the graphics are a little dated, but for me they would definitely still be adequate.

I should second King Kurt on Destroyer Command. The thing I liked about it was the ability to get all technical and man the sonar post or the engine room, etc., etc. The only problem I had with it was that the smoke and some instrument graphics went slightly wonky on XP- not a big deal. I believe it was made by the same people responsible for the SH series. If only they would do a Destroyer Command II comparable to SH III... *sigh*

Is the campaign in SH III dynamic? I thought it followed the historical arc of the war(?).

Edit: Pacific Storm could be awesome...or it could be a mess.... I doubt the flight control will really be of sim calibre, but the strategic and tactical naval game could be good.
Pacific Storm Official Page
Better Pics on IGN
Review at Strategy InformerIt still sounds promising to me, if daunting at first. According to gamaxx.de it comes with a battle editor (sweet!).

[Spino]

English Assassin & Spino, the FSP does look pretty neat. Obviously the graphics are a little dated, but for me they would definitely still be adequate.

I should second King Kurt on Destroyer Command. The thing I liked about it was the ability to get all technical and man the sonar post or the engine room, etc., etc. The only problem I had with it was that the smoke and some instrument graphics went slightly wonky on XP- not a big deal. I believe it was made by the same people responsible for the SH series. If only they would do a Destroyer Command II comparable to SH III... *sigh*

Is the campaign in SH III dynamic? I thought it followed the historical arc of the war(?).

Edit: Pacific Storm could be awesome...or it could be a mess.... I doubt the flight control will really be of sim calibre, but the strategic and tactical naval game could be good.
Pacific Storm Official Page
Better Pics on IGN
Review at Strategy InformerIt still sounds promising to me, if daunting at first. According to gamaxx.de it comes with a battle editor (sweet!).

Although you cannot affect the outcome of the war the dynamic campaign in SH III does generate and track individual contacts, convoys and other military assets based on the historical progress of the war. The dynamic campaign is well done and pretty damn immersive. Even though the outcome of the war cannot be changed you really do feel like you're a part of something bigger instead of being forced down a linear sequence of missions.

Oddly enough SH III was originally supposed to ship with a fixed number of linear mission campaigns but the naval gaming community screamed bloody murder for a dynamic campaign and was rewarded for their efforts! The publisher took note of the public outcry and delayed SH III 4-6 months so the developers could integrate the dynamic campaign.

[Androo]

Spino, I thought the definition of "dynamic campaign" was that the player could affect the outcome, but I could be (and probably am) wrong about that.

I guess for my own uses I would call the kind of campaign you describe for SHIII 'semi dynamic'. "Dynamic" because the player can go anywhere in an unfolding world and because his or her actions have consequences (I assume if you come across "Hood" and sink her, she doesn't magically reappear in your next mission!) But "semi" because the player doesn't affect the larger result.

On the cover of one of their later albums The Clash had a little slogan: "The future is unwritten". That for me sort-of sums up a fully dynamic campaign. I know that, realistically, it is extremely unlikely that an individual or a small group of individuals could change the course of a massive war, but it is not impossible. For example, how very different things might have been if the dam-busters raid had failed or von Stauffenberg (spelling?) succeeded in assassinating Hitler... In the context of SHIII: I believe Churchill and Roosevelt actually once met on a battleship (off Newfoundland?)... Or, what if your U boat ace alter ego sinks an American passenger liner in 1940?..

[Macedon]

Dangerous Waters. Modern submarine sim (USA vs. Russia vs. China). Mildly dynamic campaign (+you can provoke war if you attack a neutral country). The game is very realistic, it takes days, even weeks to master the various sonar modes, graphics are just ok, 'cause the focus of the game is not eye candy...
3-4 subs, 1 ship and 1 plane playable.

This is a game I would describe as 'fans only', so if you are really into naval sims, it's perfect for you.
Gamespy review

[Just A Girl]

Only game ive played was Silent Hunter, The origional.
I liked it,
Although never did figure out how the hell i was suposed to configure torpedo tragectorys properly so they compensated for the ships moovment.

I would imagine
Silent Hunter III Would be as imersive a game as the origional.
But i cant say i know.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I must say SHIII looks very promising, it's the only game I've had time to check anything out about, I checked some in-game videos and it looked awesome. However I'm in need of a new graphics card before I can run it so I haven't bought any of the naval games yet. So far it seems like the most interesting are:
- SHIII
- Destroyer command
- Fighting steel (difficult to get hold of where I live but hopefully not impossible)
- Dangerous waters

[Spino]

Spino, I thought the definition of "dynamic campaign" was that the player could affect the outcome, but I could be (and probably am) wrong about that.

I guess for my own uses I would call the kind of campaign you describe for SHIII 'semi dynamic'. "Dynamic" because the player can go anywhere in an unfolding world and because his or her actions have consequences (I assume if you come across "Hood" and sink her, she doesn't magically reappear in your next mission!) But "semi" because the player doesn't affect the larger result.

On the cover of one of their later albums The Clash had a little slogan: "The future is unwritten". That for me sort-of sums up a fully dynamic campaign. I know that, realistically, it is extremely unlikely that an individual or a small group of individuals could change the course of a massive war, but it is not impossible. For example, how very different things might have been if the dam-busters raid had failed or von Stauffenberg (spelling?) succeeded in assassinating Hitler... In the context of SHIII: I believe Churchill and Roosevelt actually once met on a battleship (off Newfoundland?)... Or, what if your U boat ace alter ego sinks an American passenger liner in 1940?..

It all depends on how you define dynamic. For most sims that sport a dynamic campaign it simply means you are given randomly generated missions which are based on the historical variables set by the developers. I believe Falcon 4.0 and the recent Falcon 4.0 Allied Force(?) have the kind of complex and interactive dynamic campaign game you are referring to.

For as long as dynamic campaigns have been around gamers and developers have been discussing the pros and cons of allowing people to have a massive impact on the outcome of a given battle or war. I'm sure some people would like to exert that kind of legendary heroic influence on the war effort but it seems terribly unrealistic and unreasonable. Even if every single U-boat had a crack crew and was commanded by a captain of the same caliber as Otto Kretschmer the Kriegsmarine would have still lost the Battle of the Atlantic and suffered horrendous losses. The only way for SH III to realistically allow gamers to alter history would be for the developers to incorporate a strategic component which lets gamers take charge of the Kriegsmarine and the build priorities for Germany's shipyards. Having dozens more submarines aggressively deployed instead of a handful of cruisers and battleships spending most of their time protected in ports would have helped the Kriegsmarine enormously in the early years of the war. And you can accidentally or deliberately sink neutral vessels but it comes at a heavy cost to your prestige. Beyond that I am unsure of how it affects SH III's campaign game.

SH III's dynamic campaign is dynamic in that each patrol is a unique experience, you are not forced to fulfill the fixed and limited goals typical to most linear mission campaign games. When your boat is sent out on patrol you never know what you're going to run into. Sometimes you don't find a damn thing in your designated patrol zone only to run into a massive convoy or experience relentless attacks from aerial patrols on your way home. I also believe the game tracks the numbers of capital ships that were historically available so if you sink the Hood and any other ships in it's class then that's it for the remainder of the war.

Only game ive played was Silent Hunter, The origional.
I liked it,
Although never did figure out how the hell i was suposed to configure torpedo tragectorys properly so they compensated for the ships moovment.

I would imagine
Silent Hunter III Would be as imersive a game as the origional.
But i cant say i know.

Full blown realism mode is still in SH III, you can configure trajectories manually or have the game automatically do them for you (subject to any tweaking you'd like to do just prior to firing).

[Androo]

It all depends on how you define dynamic.

Yep, exactly. I get what you are saying about the freedom the player has within missions and not feeling like the whole thing is on rails. Again, for my own purposes at least, I would say what you describe for SHIII is a dynamic world, but that's just me.

BTW, none of what I have said re SHIII was meant in any way as a criticism of it. It sounds like a superb game- no not a game: a superb sim. As you say, it would be extremely unlikely for a U boat to affect the outcome of the war, so the impossibility of that happening in the game is basically irrelevant. (Though I still think it would add an interesting dimension if, for instance, sinking an American liner or warship in 1940 could bring the US into the war early!)

[Puzz3D]

Full blown realism mode is still in SH III, you can configure trajectories manually or have the game automatically do them for you (subject to any tweaking you'd like to do just prior to firing).

I use SHIII with the real u-boat mod, and setting up the torpedo shots is great. You do it the way they actually did it in WWII, and can even make under the keel shots with magnetic detonators.