We Stand on Guard for Thee...Unless Bad Guys Come, in Which Case We Flee.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Funny story from near where I used to live.
Seems two murderers wanted in Cali were fleeing to the Canadian border, hotly pursued by police. Almost got there too.



That maroon car is the one the suspects were in. That 5 foot stone post to the right of the white SUV is the border marker. US agents wouldn't have been able to continue the chase past the border. Luckily, the SUV broadsided them in the nick of time.
Local US Paper.

And what did the Canadian border guards do when informed of the rapidly approaching fugitives? They fled. Walked off. Hard to blame them, of course, when they're unarmed.

From the Canuck's mouth:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...410687-cp.html

Some interesting quotes:

A spokeswoman for the Canada Border Services Agency said the guards have the legal right to refuse to work if they believe they are in imminent danger. Guards who leave their posts are replaced by supervisors.

Interesting...what they heck are they good for then? Guarding against those who are harmless?

As it stands, border guards are supposed to allow anyone suspected of being armed and dangerous into Canada and then call police.

"We are supposed to withdraw because we're not armed," said Pellerin-Fowlie. "In many locations, that simply means the individual has gained entry because the response times are too long, hours, if at all."

Dang. Not exactly an effective strategem for actual border defense, now is it?

And a bit from Mark Steyn:

Like much of the European Union, we're so heavily invested in the idea that we've found a kinder, gentler way we can scarcely bear to contemplate the reality. At the Washington state/British Columbia border last week, two guys on the lam were hightailing it through Blaine heading for the 49th parallel with the cops in hot pursuit. Alerted to what was coming their way, Canada's (unarmed) border guards walked off the job. For a country whose national anthem lyrics are mostly endless reprises of the line "we stand on guard for thee," we could at least stand on guard. A few years back, I was chatting with a border guard at the Derby Line, Vt./Rock Island, Quebec, crossing. A beat-up sedan came hurtling northward and we jumped out of the way. She sounded a klaxon. By then the driver was halfway up the Trans-Quebecoise autoroute and, if he ever heard her stern warning, he declined to brake and reverse back to the post to show his papers. "Oh, well," she said to me, "it's probably nothing."

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

I guess this underscores a fundamental philosophical difference between Canadians and Americans. If given the choice between engaging in avoidable armed conflict that will most likely result in loss of life but offer no real benefit, versus walking away from a situation and letting it diffuse to the point where it might be resolved without anybody ending up dead, Americans tend to choose the former, while Canadians prefer the latter.

Oh well. You say tomayto, I say tomahto...

[Proletariat]

If given the choice between engaging in avoidable armed conflict that will most likely result in loss of life but offer no real benefit, versus walking away from a situation and letting it diffuse to the point where it might be resolved without anybody ending up dead, Americans tend to choose the former, while Canadians prefer the latter.

Right, because the Canadian guards knew a guy desperate enough to flee the police in a high speed, cross-border chase, must just be a harmless mischief maker and catching him would've had 'no real benefit.'

[Beirut]

I like the idea that our border guards are unarmed.

I also like the idea of an RCMP officer sitting in a cruiser behind every border crossing as well.

[Xiahou]

What's the point of having a guard if they aren't going to guard anything?

Apparently they're willing to stop any law-abiding citizens at the border no problem- BUT, if someone dangerous wants to cross... well screw that- they're outta there.

Honestly though, it's tough to blame them when their government leaves them to enforce border security armed with little more than harsh language and dirty looks. I understand the new Canadian PM is looking to fix that though...

[Krypta]

I'm with the Americans on this! Next time an American nutter decides to make a B-line for Great White North, our border guards should be able to pump them full of hot lead (Politely and in a Canadian way ofc).

Seriously, though, does anybody else see the irony?

[Don Corleone]

Amusingly, Goofball was totally right. In their relative defenses for their policies, the Americans and Canadians posting in this thread have highlighted the difference between the two.

Anyway, good luck with all our dregs coming your way. If they know you won't even bother to try to slow them down, where do you think they're going to high tail it to next time the heat is on? My guess would be the path of least resistance...

[Beirut]

...the Americans and Canadians posting in this thread have highlighted the difference between the two.

For my part, I do not want the first Canadian a visitor to my country sees to be someone with a gun. Simple as that.

A cop ten feet away watching is fine. But the first person the visitor talks to should absolutely not be carrying a gun. It's not who we are and not who we want to be.

[Papewaio]

Let police or SWAT deal with an armed crossing.

The guards are the eyes and ears, not the armed forces.

Security guards in Australia are generally unarmed except for those transporting valuables.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Security guards in Australia are generally unarmed except for those transporting valuables.

These are far from security guards. So is there a RCMP there to back up these guys and if so where were they this time? If not you guys are in real trouble.

[Papewaio]

We also have state and federal quarantine guards and they are generally unarmed... unless you include beagles.

[Goofball]

What's the point of having a guard if they aren't going to guard anything?

They are not guards, they are customs agents. They are not charged with providing physical security for Canadians (that is a job more appropriately left to our police and armed forces), but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.

Having said that, with such a violent, armed population living directly to our south, maybe we should rethink that policy...

[Strike For The South]

I know what I can do! I smuggle illegal arms into Canada and they give me my pills! Its foolproof!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Pick me up some weed while your there. But be careful when you return. I hear our guards are actually armed . What were we thinking?

[Kanamori]

Arms trades for BC Buds seems fair to me...

Edit: pick mine up first, mine friends have been bragging about some good stuff they got... then I reminded them I'm going to Amsterdam, and I could lie about the price when I send it back to the PO Box.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I guess this underscores a fundamental philosophical difference between Canadians and Americans. If given the choice between engaging in avoidable armed conflict that will most likely result in loss of life but offer no real benefit, versus walking away from a situation and letting it diffuse to the point where it might be resolved without anybody ending up dead, Americans tend to choose the former, while Canadians prefer the latter.

Oh well. You say tomayto, I say tomahto...

So you wouldn't mind the guards walking away and then the crazies getting through and shooting up some crowded place like The Collosus movie theater or a wave pool in southern BC? Huh.

I think the real difference is that these Canadian guards seem all to willing to avoid conflict even if it means more trouble lately, an offspring of the naive belief that all violence is bad, unnecessary, and uncivilized. Like the above example; not confronting two fugitive murderers because you might kill them is best, despite the fact that they would most probably do great harm to innocents later on.

American guards, on the other hand, would put themselves in harm's way to stop murderers from escaping justice or injurying people.

@Gawain-
No, there's no RCMP cars parked there now.

What really angers me is how the Canadian's refusal to defend their borders means more fugitives will be speeding through Whatcom county trying to get to the land where you can force your way across the border with a pistol, knife, or working car.

Crazed Rabbit

[Papewaio]

Modern economics requires the use of specialists.

The border guard specialise in import infringements and writing tickets, smiling and directing tourists.

RCMP specialise in chasing criminals.

Problems occur when non-specialists try to perform specialist roles. Also specialists without the correct equipment and environment may find it hard to perform their duties adequately.

[Crazed Rabbit]

but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

And what if an 'import violation' occurs, and the person refuses to cooperate and just continues through? What are the 'customs agents' going to do? Talk sternly to them as they drive off? What if a bunch of gangsters drive through looking for trouble? Your 'customs agents' would be powerless to stop them from going into the suburbs of Vancouver.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.

Hmm. In the fantasy world that is the Canadian Psyche, there must be no such people as violent criminals or small time crooks acting independently of countries and nations.

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

So you wouldn't mind the guards walking away and then the crazies getting through and shooting up some crowded place like The Collosus movie theater or a wave pool in southern BC? Huh.

Riiiiigghhhhht. That's exactly how I feel. I would rather see women and children get shot full of holes than have our customs agents carry handguns.

Please dial 1-800-GET-REAL.

Can you tell me the last time one of your armed, violent citizens charged through our border and went on a wild killing spree that would have been prevented if only our border guards carried pistols? Would these be the same crack-head axe-murderers I'm always hearing about when pro-gun types are telling me why they need assault rifles for home defence?

I think the real difference is that these Canadian guards seem all to willing to avoid conflict even if it means more trouble lately, an offspring of the naive belief that all violence is bad, unnecessary, and uncivilized. Like the above example; not confronting two fugitive murderers because you might kill them is best, despite the fact that they would most probably do great harm to innocents later on.

Sorry, but how were these customs agents going to have any hope of killing (or even slowing down) these fugitive murderers? Were they supposed to bore them to death reading them customs regulations?

At any rate, you are prefectly welcome to think that. And guess what? Luckily for you, you live in the U.S., and luckily for me, I live in Canada.

American guards, on the other hand, would put themselves in harm's way to stop murderers from escaping justice or injurying people.

Yes, trained, armed American law enforcement officers would do that. As would trained, armed Canadian law enforcement officers.

But Canadian customs agents are not trained, armed law enforcement officers. They are there to enforce customs/excise regulations. Arming them and telling them to shoot it out with armed fugitives would be like giving an accountant agent a gun and telling him to go and capture people who don't to pay their taxes.

So please, don't go any further with your line of thinking that Americans are so much more selfless and brave than Canadians are.

There are cowards and heroes on both sides of the border, and whether you sing The Star Spangled Banner or Oh Canada has nothing to do with which category you fall into.

[Goofball]

Hmm. In the fantasy world that is the Canadian Psyche, there must be no such people as violent criminals or small time crooks acting independently of countries and nations.

Before you start the country bashing, maybe you should look at the fantasy world of the American psyche: where line dancing is a good way to get laid, Iraq really did have WMDs, and Jesus would be in favor of the death penalty if he was here today.



Or maybe it could be that both of our countries are very different, and beliefs that may reflect reality in the USA do not reflect reality in Canada, and vice versa.

Do ya think?

[Strike For The South]

where line dancing is a good way to get laid, .

man, How do you think I was made brotha

[Kanamori]

At least we have proper dinner jackets and slacks in the States!

[Xiahou]

They are not guards, they are customs agents. They are not charged with providing physical security for Canadians (that is a job more appropriately left to our police and armed forces), but rather with making sure no import violations occur, and collecting the appropriate duties/taxes at the border.

The difference is that we don't view ourselves as an armed camp that needs to be defended because we are surrounded by enemies who covet all that we have and want to make it their own.

Speak for yourself- your border guards want to be armed.

"We will never work in a safe environment," said Steve Pellerin-Fowlie, who said about 20 guards were involved in the incident. "What we've been calling for for years is the tools that will provide the maximum amount of safety possible."

"On Nov. 6, we had a person cross into Canada in my riding by simply pointing a gun at a lone official who was there, an unarmed woman. She stepped back and let the individual cross the border."

The man was eventually captured, but not by Canadian authorities. He wasn't caught until he tried to return back the U.S. on a bus, long after he had got rid of his gun north of the border, said Toews.

Luckily for them, it sounds like they're likely to get armed under the Conservative parliament.

[Goofball]

Speak for yourself- your border guards want to be armed.

Well, I guess I know how Americans must feel when foreigners who in many cases have never even been to America feel that they are qualified to tell Americans what things are really like in America, based on what they have read in the papers.

Xiahou, you should know better than that. One (or even several) customes agents saying they want guns does not equate to all of them wanting guns. Believe it or not, this has actually been on the news quite a bit in in my neck of the woods lately (see my public profile, I live pretty close to where this happened). And just yesterday, there was a customs agent interviewed on the radio who was adamantly against having to carry a gun to work. But as with your example, this is anecdotal.

So, what was that little bit of wisdom you offered earlier?

Oh, yes. I believe it was "Speak for yourself..."

[Papewaio]

Should all American civil servants carry firearms?

[Xiahou]

So, what was that little bit of wisdom you offered earlier?

Oh, yes. I believe it was "Speak for yourself..."

Umm yeah... I guess the difference would be that the person I quoted was a union spokesman for the border guards. The union is unabashedly in favor of arming it's guards. That's a bit different than just 1 guard's opinion.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

God bless the American customs though, I've had terrible experiences with the U.S. authorities acting like jerks on the Canadian border (the Canadians have always been delightful though).

I was entertained that nobody ever answered the complaints line when I tried to report the U.S. customs people.

Probably good that at least one side of the Canadian border is guarded by very unpleasant jobsworths.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I would imagine this is the same at all their borders. So whats to stop terrorists from just entering Canada? But then again I hear they let them in anyway.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

wasn't there a bunch of Canadian AQ caught in Afghanistan?

they obviously export them too (well, I think they were all immigrants so I guess it was more a case of re-exporting them).

[Papewaio]

I would imagine this is the same at all their borders. So whats to stop terrorists from just entering Canada? But then again I hear they let them in anyway.

So if you have a sidearm you can magically stop someone who is going to do a terrorist act. Even though they may live in your country for years, work, learn and do other things... and then one day board a plane with 4 others and take down an airplane with a boxcutter.

So do sidearms detect boxcutters?
Is it illegal to carry one across the US-Canadian border?
Might it be feasible that a terrorist not carry the boxcutter themselves?