Tell me this is a bug... or the AI cheat baaaaaad!

[booker]

Ok, this is the last post of the day i promise.

I spent the whole night playing EB, and to be honnest i like it a lot, but there are some things i saw that make me feel dissapointed.

This is one screen:

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-eb.JPG

What i don´t like?... I´m on the bottom, almost, on every category.. i didn´t try playing with top factions but i´, certain i won´t be there if i do.

Why we can´t be 1 more faction?

and this make me quit the game...
well, actually was a CTD but i was close to quitting anyway.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/booker-EB2.JPG

How is posible? i earn like 200m per turn and the AI can build this army? and look those equipement!

I do know the AI cheat on VH, to be honest, i never ever experience this kind of cheating.. what happen?

[LorDBulA]

You have brain, AI have cash.

Dont get bother by CA faction rating.
If you have the same resources as AI then game is not fun becouse as i said you have brain but AI dont.

[booker]

Good reason

I guess we can´t ask to get fair condition then....


btw, this happen on vanilla as well? coz i never saw this Huge difference between human and AI, even on VH levels.

[Cheexsta]

This is a product of the background script. If you're willing to wade through tons of code, you can probably lower the amounts yourself, but really, the AI needs all the help it can get.

[Zero1]

Yeah, unfortunately the AI seems to be beyond idiotic, dumb as the proverbial rock. The only way for it to be able to compete with the human player and actually make it challenging is to help it out quite a bit, and sometimes even WITH all the added help and resources, the AI manages to sit there and do nothing all game.

[Thorn Is]

I've never experienced an AI with that much cash before. But only play on Med. Is that the reason?

[=E.T=]

You have brain, AI have cash.

Don't get bother by CA faction rating.
If you have the same resources as AI then game is not fun because as i said you have brain but AI don't.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Clear! no,...Cristal!

[Dayve]

It was like that in vanilla also... CA spent more time on graphics than... Well, anything else, and we have to suffer because of it. The only way the AI can ever be even a slight challenge is if they cheat.. And like someone said, they still do rediculous things even then...

Just as an example, and this is the funniest thing i have ever seen... A while back in vanilla, me being the Brutii, the Scipii lost Messana and had only Capua left... Many turns later i noticed they still only had Capua... I had a look to see wtf was up... What did i see? 5 full stack armies stoof outside Capua... They had built so many armies that they couldn't afford a fleet to do anything with them.

[2ltben]

It's not so much a challenge for me as it is

1.) Attack and take the weakest border city, declare war on rebels.
2.) Watch as 5 full stacks invade my two settlements, having two army stacks with only 3-5 units per army.
3.) Lose.

It's either that or suffer -12000 profit per turn while having just enough of an army to stay on the offensive while keeping my cities alive and fed while the five nations attacking me refuse to a ceasefire, sacrificing any notion of a navy(making my three settlements on islands fend for themselves).

Even Medium is kicking the crap out of me

[booker]

This is a product of the background script. If you're willing to wade through tons of code, you can probably lower the amounts yourself, but really, the AI needs all the help it can get.

Well i went back to Vanilla, and i did play same lenght and i didn´t see this crazy stuff on it... i even played RTR, wich i´m playing right now, and same thing.

I don´t want to play a game were all factions are against me, i don´t ask for even resources, but at lease "hide" them...

All factions have full stacks army and you have to disband the few units you have, and even then you earn like 200mnari per turn.... It´s not realistc and it´s not fun either.

For me this is too much i know the AI need tons of help but by doing this you are unbalancing the game on other aspects... anyways,i´ll give a shot when this get released, but it seems dev want to go to other route....

[Malrubius]

I don´t want to play a game were all factions are against me, i don´t ask for even resources, but at lease "hide" them...

You can't really hide how much money the AI factions have. One of our goals was to make the game a fun challenge, and we think we've done that. One way we've done that is by providing cash infusions to the AI factions. In the original game, you wouldn't see that, they'd just go bankrupt and quit doing anything until you rolled over them. That's not our idea of a fun challenge.

The amount of money the AI receives through our background script is still being refined. We want to make sure they have enough, so it's a careful balancing act. That's where your feedback comes in!

[PseRamesses]

@booker,
How do you expect to build an Dacian empire when the Dacians couldn´t? There´s a reason why they are not around, right?!

It´s seems that all factions started out with roughly 35.000m judging from your pic? Have you changed this? If so, there´s nothing to refrain you from giving everyone less and yourself more, right?

There´s hardly any faction in EB that generate a profit from start. You have to cut your expenses by disbanding units, fleets etc or go on an immediate blitz-offensive from turn one. You can´t eat the cake and keep it at the same time. So decide your strategy and go for it. Dacia has a very good starting point, like Sweboz, so you shouldn´t have a problem. If you blitz then simply que up your settlements units rooster for every penny you´ve got and try to expand in multiple directions with smaller bands. Played properly you can be outnumbered 5:1 and still win, keep your cool. Good luck!

[booker]

@booker,
How do you expect to build an Dacian empire when the Dacians couldn´t? There´s a reason why they are not around, right?!

It´s seems that all factions started out with roughly 35.000m judging from your pic? Have you changed this? If so, there´s nothing to refrain you from giving everyone less and yourself more, right?

There´s hardly any faction in EB that generate a profit from start. You have to cut your expenses by disbanding units, fleets etc or go on an immediate blitz-offensive from turn one. You can´t eat the cake and keep it at the same time. So decide your strategy and go for it. Dacia has a very good starting point, like Sweboz, so you shouldn´t have a problem. If you blitz then simply que up your settlements units rooster for every penny you´ve got and try to expand in multiple directions with smaller bands. Played properly you can be outnumbered 5:1 and still win, keep your cool. Good luck!

I didn´t change anything but when no matter what faction you played with, you start loosing money and if u don´t disband your armys you go bankrupt... also no matter what faction you play when u compare to the other factions you can see they are doing great from the start...

Your point of the dacian not being able to made a empire is not valid, coz no matter what faction you start with, you have to do all this...

I know the AI need extra cash but i think they went to the extreme, i find funny you all people ask for realism but when it come to this you forget about realism, make it hard, but belivable.

Just see how the other factions are between the 12k and the 48k i´m on the 2k. I hope they tweak this a bit , honeslty it seems like while i build archers the AI is able to build Delta forces with MP5 :(

[LorDBulA]

I know the AI need extra cash but i think they went to the extreme, i find funny you all people ask for realism but when it come to this you forget about realism, make it hard, but belivable.

We want realistic results. Because we are moding game that warks totaly different then real life sometimes its necessary to use unrealistic means to get more realistic autcome.

What is more realistic Player faction steemrolling every other faction just because player plays as it, or making it difficult for player to forge empire?

History tells us that forging empires is not easy, and this is realism we want to achieve.

[booker]

I know they ai get tons o money... now my 2nd question is.. does EB did something to make the AI get thos experience ranks?.. Coz really it only been 260 and they didn´t fight those many battles to earn those... but maybe i´m paranoic or that is hardcoded... any explanation will be good..

[LorDBulA]

If you mean unit experience then the answer is no. We didnt do anything to it, its standard RTW mechanism,

[Baldrick]

I'm building quite a nice Dacian Empire..The key is patience and intelligent spending. by waiting till the correct moment I can now systematically wipe the rebel cities whilst not losing any cash and can expand and restock my army (singular at present) at will. I'm just about to start tooling up for an assault on Epiros so that could be a fun challenge.

[booker]

I don´t say it was imposible to build the Dacian empire... in fact, all those army you saw on the pick pass me by... didn´t attack me at all... but it was how they get there what i don´t like...

I want to be part of a living world, while playing EB i feel the CPU is against me, not Rome, germania, Greeks or whatever... AI vs Human... And i don´t like that.

everyone is rich and have many resources but the Human Is poor and don`t have resources...

that is what i mean by this post, i´m certain with patience and building your economy you will be able to get there...

[PSYCHO V]

I want to be part of a living world....

Don't we all ... but the'res only so much that can be done with CA's hard coding, especially on the AI.

... AI vs Human... And i don´t like that..

An unfortunate reality.

everyone is rich and have many resources but the Human Is poor and don`t have resources... I´m certain with patience and building your economy you will be able to get there...

Yup.. expand and consolidate, expand and consolidate, etc etc and you can be rolling in the dosh. Current campaign as the Aedui and I'm raking in 16,000 Net per season.

I don´t say it was imposible to build the Dacian empire....

Well, factions that were historically 'up against it' will find it hard in EB.


my2bob

[avenzer]

i dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

[LorDBulA]

dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

Nobody can do this. There is no good ai right now. And there wont be for long long time. Unless you are playing some very simple game so human brain is out of equesion because game rules are so simple. Or like in chess there are decades of human experience and analysis that you can plug into program to make smart decisions, but even then you need big ass computer to handle calculations.
If you want to have challenge you have to give ai a head start. There is no other way.

[jebes]

okey will go try this mod again after 6 months

I may be misunderstanding this sentence, but I think you are confused about which mod this is. This mod has only been out for 1 month and a half.

[TheBigJon]

Heh, i loved that feeling in M:TW... when it felt like it was the whole CPU controlled world against you. Playing as the Danes i cut a path of destruction through Germany, straight to the Papal states, and then decimated them, and had enemies on all borders, all around me.

It was amazingly fun, constant warfare, and multitudes of armies from around the world assaulting me, since my empire bordered about 8 other nations i was at war with.

[Moros]

Heh, i loved that feeling in M:TW... when it felt like it was the whole CPU controlled world against you. Playing as the Danes i cut a path of destruction through Germany, straight to the Papal states, and then decimated them, and had enemies on all borders, all around me.

It was amazingly fun, constant warfare, and multitudes of armies from around the world assaulting me, since my empire bordered about 8 other nations i was at war with.

Now that's a fun game.

But people If I'm right they're already working on a more subtile and better way to help the AI.

[Ludens]

i dont like that AI cheats.. cheating is always cheating i installed this game then it dont even run huoh and now i hear that ai cheating okey will go try this mod again after 6 months... huoh... i suggest that build AI brain script it will not cheat ... make ai build some farms etc to make money or trade other countries and make alliens...

The base A.I. of R:TW is bad, and there is very little modders can do to improve that. If we want to have an A.I. that provides a challenge we have to help it by giving it advantages the human player does not have. In other words: it has to cheat. There is no other option. If there was a way to make the A.I. provide a challenge without giving it these advantages, believe me, the EB team would have tried it. It simply cannot be done.

[GMT]

But people If I'm right they're already working on a more subtile and better way to help the AI.

Care to enlighten us?

[booker]

Care to enlighten us?

My whole point with this thread was that i was hardly getting 200 mnari o denarii or whatever, this include disbanding my entire army, leaving only a few units for garrison while the AI was able to build 5 full stacks army or more :(

That is too much if u ask me.... not only this bother me, also i hate the fact the AI units experience was soo high 3 Silver chevron so early in the game. Never happend on Vanilla 1.5

I know the AI has to cheat to make a game challenge, but the AI on VH/VH vanilla cheats as well, but is not that evident when u check the factions rankings.. or when you meet your enemies they aren`t silver and gold chevrons with only a few turns played.

Check the factions financial on first turn... it´s so out of proportion... is really ugly if u tell me.

This is what i didn´t like about it.I love challenge, but when i have simple archers and the AI gets Marines with MP16 it´s not fun.

[Moros]

Care to enlighten us?

Sorry but I don't know much more about it. You'll have to ask that to one of the coders.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

EB is harder than vanilla. If someone was barely getting by on VH/H or whatever the level was, they need to maybe start out at an easier level in EB. But the finances work as they should. There will be some tweaks, but no overhauls. Every faction is playable as they currently are, but discretion has to be used. None of these factions conquered the whole map by 150BC or even a quarter of it by 200BC in real life; EB is slower and harder than vanilla for a good reason though.

[booker]

I read harder and harder and harder and challenge, i think people are blind by this.. if you have archers and the ai has marines will be a lot harder too and challenging too., but at what cost EB is being harder? That is the whole point.

I good mod is not based only on how hard it is, there are many thing including balance, not only on skins and factions also on how the AI interact with the human, making a living world, etc and this is were i think EB fail, EB end up bing AI vs Human.. instead of being factions against factions. AI gets all kind of advantage while human get none...

If i want to play a challenge game i could edit my whole units stats to 1 and i won´t win any battle at all... but this is not the point... i think this AI "help" or handicap need to be tweaked to make it "beliveable" otherwise it´s not feeling right.