Satanism as philosophy

[GoreBag]

Cronos, was this spurred on by anything?

[rory_20_uk]

Wigferth, your argument is redundant as soon as you say "in the Bible". As I have pointed out that is the Christian view on the subject - and is different from others, including the Jews who see Satan in a slightly different light. To discuss something, although it's advisable to come with an open mind, it is impossible to come without the ability to listen to others.

As Redleg mentions, it is likely that for many Satanists the title is purely there as to be reactionary and provocative against Christianity.

[Cronos Impera]

1.Okay, firstly Satan is a widely spread word across Mongolia and Tibet. Those people never had contacts with the Jewish or Christian beliefs.
2. The widely spread image of Satan, a man with horns and hoofs is simmilar to that of a satyr. Satyrs ware mythological beings that simbolized nature and joy of life. Baalzebut or "lord of the flies" is a mockery of Baal, the pheonician god of the sky, the cloud-walker. Jews built their religion in adversity to the other religions, so they would keep united under a single rule.
3. Satan means "The Accuser", he's the archytipe of rebel. Back in the Antiquity rebellion was a crime, rebels ware seen as bad people so Satan, the symbol of rebellion became also the symbol of Evil.
4. The Christian/Jewish religions ware copy/paste cultures a little. The Flood copy/pasted by the hebrews from the Epic of Gilgamesh is the most eloquent example. Christianity, as a religion, promotes a centralized gouverment and despotism. Constantine the Great converted to Christianity, understanding that it transformed unity/control into a religion and pluralism/liberty into crimes.
"The heroes of the past become the villans of the present"
Even the date of Christmas was settled for control, as it's of Saturnalia, one of the past pagan festivals. Christmas = Craciun = stump ( sanskrit)
Jesus was introduced to the Norse as the eastern version of Baldur.
Gheena, the Biblic hell was in fact a trash pit, in Romanian we still use gheena to describe the commo trash-pit.

Trashing buildings, raping women and killing people for distruction's sake don't turn you into a rebel, they turn you into an idiot. Challanging well-known philosophycal and social conceptions on the other hand do.
One view-point isn't enough .

Unfortunately, the popular image of satanism attracts large scores of pokemons to the movement. Those idiotic, senseless teenagers turn of the news bulletins, not the intelectuals. F*** them.

[Redleg]

However one views the history of Satanism it still comes down to modern terms and how the religion or philosophy is viewed.

Satanism in today's world consists of mainly two things. One is the cult that resolves around the worship of Satan as a diety. The other is the humanistic philosophy.

The past makes for some interesting reading - Cronos Impera, but the scope of the current discussion is not the past of Satanism, but the philosophy of Satanism.

The religious philosophy of the Satanic Church is the anti-hesis to the Christian Church. That is the philosophy that is primarily acknowledge in the west concerning Satanism as a religion.

As a philosophy Satanism while has some interesting humanistic approaches - is just another philosophy on how to live your life. Its more hedonistic then many others but not necessarily good nor wrong.

[GoreBag]

Ah, memories.

Did you miss my question, Cronos?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Wigferth, your argument is redundant as soon as you say "in the Bible". As I have pointed out that is the Christian view on the subject - and is different from others, including the Jews who see Satan in a slightly different light. To discuss something, although it's advisable to come with an open mind, it is impossible to come without the ability to listen to others.

Rory As has been said the Satan in Satanism is from the Bible, he's cut and paste. Saying the Bible is biased is silly because Satan is from the Bible, whether he comes from another religion originally or not the version in Satanism is the "polished" version from Christianity, not some proto-Satan the Jews nicked from someone else.

As to my not listening, I could say the same about you not listening to my arguement. Ask a Christian whether Satan is evil/the emobodiment of evil and you will get a resounding yes. Thats why when starting a religion you shouldn't name it Satanism, because the only reason to do that is to stick a finger up at Christianity.

As to his role in Jewdaism, I also said:

Satan is the embodyment of evil in the Bible, it's not about religion but morality. Satan is a morrally corrupting figure. Plus admiring him is stupid because he's clearly still working for the big G, as he has no free will.

Notice I never said Satan himself was actually evil. If you use your loaf you'll realise that Satan can't go against God because, as an angel, he's supposed to lack free will. Also in the book of Job God allows Satan to test Job. If you can stop him doing something to Job then he can stop him doing anything else either.

A.Saturnus, Would you call your cat Adolf Hitler? Before you say it, no its not different. Satan is not a word its a name. The name of the embodiement of evil in Christianity and so western culture in general.

[Cronos Impera]

Rory As has been said the Satan in Satanism is from the Bible, he's cut and paste. Saying the Bible is biased is silly because Satan is from the Bible, whether he comes from another religion originally or not the version in Satanism is the "polished" version from Christianity, not some proto-Satan the Jews nicked from someone else.

As to my not listening, I could say the same about you not listening to my arguement. Ask a Christian whether Satan is evil/the emobodiment of evil and you will get a resounding yes. Thats why when starting a religion you shouldn't name it Satanism, because the only reason to do that is to stick a finger up at Christianity.

As to his role in Jewdaism, I also said:

Satan is the embodyment of evil in the Bible, it's not about religion but morality. Satan is a morrally corrupting figure. Plus admiring him is stupid because he's clearly still working for the big G, as he has no free will.

Notice I never said Satan himself was actually evil. If you use your loaf you'll realise that Satan can't go against God because, as an angel, he's supposed to lack free will. Also in the book of Job God allows Satan to test Job. If you can stop him doing something to Job then he can stop him doing anything else either.

A.Saturnus, Would you call your cat Adolf Hitler? Before you say it, no its not different. Satan is not a word its a name. The name of the embodiement of evil in Christianity and so western culture in general.

Errr....... Adolf Hittler and Satan don't mix. Adolf Hittler was a christian and national-socialism emphasises on christianity. Jews ware persecuted throught history because christians thought " They served the devil". If you consider rebellion a sign of evil, well all revolutionaries go to hell.

In the Bibles Satan was a failed revolutionary, turned into a scapegoat used as a trashpit for unpleasant ideeas. Anything that challanges anything can be looked to as corrupting Corruption basiclly means an altering of something. Corruption is positive, as it allows diversity to develop.
In fact God does more harm in the Bible than Satan.
He 1. Wipes out two cities just to prove that he can ( Sodom and Gomora), despite Jesus emphasises on forgiveness
2. God isn't divine, He boasts of having created the first humans yet Cain had other ideas " anyone who will find me, will kill me (Genessis 4:14) Who ware the others if God created all humans.

The Bible is confusing and contradictory

1. Exit 22:18 : "Don't let the wizards live!"
Opposing commandment:
"You shall not kill"
For what reason can this commandment be broken? For this: "I am your God. Don't have other gods instead of me!
In the Bible rules are meant to be broken by following others.

2. Luca 14:26 : "If someone doesn't come to me and hate his father and his mother mama his wife or children or brothers and sisters , even his own soul, he can't become My apprentice."
Jesus promotes hatred instead of peace and love. Jesus advices us to destory our families. The man speaking is Jesus telling us to hate our fammilies and commit suicide.
3. Matthew 10:34 Don't think I've come to bring peace on earth; I haven't come to bring peace, but war.
Isn't that violence promoted through the pure Son of God. Is Jesus pure, peace loving.
"He who loves his mother or father more than he loves Me isn't worthy of Me, he who loves his son or daughter more than Me, isn't worthy of Me" Matthew 10:39
Are any of us "worthy"?

Purity is hipocritical and falsehood.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well first off, no, according to the Bible none of us are worthy. Abraham asked God to spare Sodam and Gomora if only one good person could be found among them. God agreed, then destroyed both cities.

Hitler and Satan are both quite offensive in general. Saying Hitler was a Christian is a cop out. He was supposed to be Catholic but he wouldn't ever listen to the Pope.

"In the Bibles Satan was a failed revolutionary, turned into a scapegoat used as a trashpit for unpleasant ideeas."

I agree. Yes the Bible is contradictory and confusing. None of it was written by Jesus though and it was edited by a Roman 380 years after he was born.

"2. God isn't divine, He boasts of having created the first humans yet Cain had other ideas " anyone who will find me, will kill me (Genessis 4:14) Who ware the others if God created all humans."

Saying God isn't divine is a matter of opinion. For a lot of people, myself included, God and Satan are real, please respect this.

"Satan is the embodyment of evil in Western culture and therefore cool. Granted, it may be even cooler to say 'Hail Utgard Loki' instead of 'Hail Satan', but few people understand it."

1. Losers are not cool and Loki and Satan are both losers.

2. Worshiping Loki is beyond idiotic, since he is destined to destroy the world and in the meantime is tied up in his son's intestines. Yeah, real cool mo'fo.

3. Evil is not cool, that just sounds childish. If I kill your parents for no reason is that cool?

"You base your argument on the premise that you shouldn't stick a finger up at Christianity, something people like LaVey would wholeheartedly disagree with. An important part of the whole religion is to piss off Christians."

No, I base my arguement on the idea that starting a religion to piss anyone off is a bad idea because it makes your basic premise negative.

"If Satan has no free will then how can he be evil if he cannot choose his actions ?"

Check my last post, he isn't evil, he's the embodiement, the poster boy.

[A.Saturnus]

A.Saturnus, Would you call your cat Adolf Hitler? Before you say it, no its not different. Satan is not a word its a name. The name of the embodiement of evil in Christianity and so western culture in general.

I don't particularly like the name Hitler. It's too tinny. It might be cool for a day or two, but I would give my cat a name that still sounds good after the joke is old. But I would certainly not have a problem with someone who calls his cat Hitler. I understand though that some people would feel uncomfortable with the name. For example if they had relatives that suffered under Nazi Germany. But unlike Hitler, Satan didn't commit genocide. Because he doesn't exist.

Satan is the embodyment of evil in Western culture and therefore cool. Granted, it may be even cooler to say 'Hail Utgard Loki' instead of 'Hail Satan', but few people understand it.

Thats why when starting a religion you shouldn't name it Satanism, because the only reason to do that is to stick a finger up at Christianity.

You base your argument on the premise that you shouldn't stick a finger up at Christianity, something people like LaVey would wholeheartedly disagree with. An important part of the whole religion is to piss off Christians.

[Cronos Impera]

Cronos, was this spurred on by anything?

It's just a topic, I'm not a convert to satanism you know and I'm not trying to hit the Church .

[GoreBag]

It's just a topic, I'm not a convert to satanism you know and I'm not trying to hit the Church .

It rather seems like you have something to prove, is all.

[A.Saturnus]

Hitler and Satan are both quite offensive in general

No, Hitler is offensive in general. Whether Satan is offensive depends on your believes. For me Satan is not offensive since he's only an imaginary person. And sorry, I refuse to be careful about using the name Satan just because you believe that he exists and causes harm to anyone. I have no problem with using the name Satan, extracting interesting side-meanings out of the concept and use them in a new context. If you find that offensive, too bad for you. Show me proof that Satan was involved in some major atrocities and I might reconsider.

1. Losers are not cool and Loki and Satan are both losers.

They are outcasts. Satan was struck down by God for pride. He rules hell for all eternity. I call that cool.

2. Worshiping Loki is beyond idiotic, since he is destined to destroy the world and in the meantime is tied up in his son's intestines. Yeah, real cool mo'fo

Now you're getting intolerant because there are in fact people who worship Loki, since he's a member of the Norse pantheon. Is it necessary to hold some really silly parts of your believe under your nose? Besides, destroying the world is certainly cool.

3. Evil is not cool, that just sounds childish. If I kill your parents for no reason is that cool?

That depends how you do it. BTW, you could in principle say that the whole concept of 'cool' is a bit childish, but that would be really uncool.

No, I base my arguement on the idea that starting a religion to piss anyone off is a bad idea because it makes your basic premise negative.

What's wrong with a negative basic premise? LaVey might in turn have argued with Nietzsche that Christianity is principially nihilistic. Or like Lovecraft said it "the puritans are the greatest devil worshippers because they condemn everything that is beatiful." Their opinion of course, but the point is if you oppose Christianity completely, than the concept of the antagonist of God might just be the archetype for you.

[Byzantine Prince]

God, this got stupid. Why was my post ignored? I feel ignored all the time lately. Maybe Satanism is not so bad for me afterall.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, Hitler is offensive in general. Whether Satan is offensive depends on your believes. For me Satan is not offensive since he's only an imaginary person. And sorry, I refuse to be careful about using the name Satan just because you believe that he exists and causes harm to anyone. I have no problem with using the name Satan, extracting interesting side-meanings out of the concept and use them in a new context. If you find that offensive, too bad for you. Show me proof that Satan was involved in some major atrocities and I might reconsider.

Well bully for you, glad you don't care about offending people. You could have said that its your right to offend people providing you're trying to make a point but "the word is fun" is just a bit shallow.

They are outcasts. Satan was struck down by God for pride. He rules hell for all eternity. I call that cool.

I fail to see how losing a war and being dumped in the worst place in the universe is cool. If you're king of a steeming dung heap it doesn't make the heap smell like roses.

Now you're getting intolerant because there are in fact people who worship Loki, since he's a member of the Norse pantheon. Is it necessary to hold some really silly parts of your believe under your nose? Besides, destroying the world is certainly cool.

Loki is not a member of the Aesir or the Vanir, in point of fact he is a giant. As you say he was cast out and thus is no longer really a member of the Pantheon. Outcasts might be "cool" but losers aren't. Destroying the world is cool? If I kill all your family and friends in hidious ways is that cool?

That depends how you do it. BTW, you could in principle say that the whole concept of 'cool' is a bit childish, but that would be really uncool.

Evil=killing, raping, causing pain etc. You think thats cool? You're one sick puppy. Just because evil is taboo doesn't make it cool. Oh, being cool is childish. I replaced cool with "good" "honest" "honourable" and some other things I find far more contructive about ten years ago.

What's wrong with a negative basic premise? LaVey might in turn have argued with Nietzsche that Christianity is principially nihilistic. Or like Lovecraft said it "the puritans are the greatest devil worshippers because they condemn everything that is beatiful." Their opinion of course, but the point is if you oppose Christianity completely, than the concept of the antagonist of God might just be the archetype for you.

Doing something because you hate someone?

I'm not even responding to that.

[AntiochusIII]

Well bully for you, glad you don't care about offending people. You could have said that its your right to offend people providing you're trying to make a point but "the word is fun" is just a bit shallow.

Everyone can be offended at anything. Don't tell me you're part of the PC crowd, because that's not cool. At all. The "legitimate" offense is often taken from crimes long past in history: "nigger" (sorry if I offended anyone, but censorship is stupid) is offensive because it was once -- and still -- an insult with a connotation of "you're just a slave," or "Hitler" because he committed true atrocities against millions of humans. Satan as a concept is a dispute and far from conclusive. One of my friends (quite a psycho, but that's beside the point) is a self-proclaimed "Satanist" who probably thinks it's cool to have Lucifer as his idol. I could call myself a Satanist just so, like those nobles refered to earlier, to piss people off.

I fail to see how losing a war and being dumped in the worst place in the universe is cool. If you're king of a steeming dung heap it doesn't make the heap smell like roses.

I assume you're taking the concept of Satan from the epic Paradise Lost? Since you seem to refer to "losing a war" which, if I remember correctly, did not really happen. That was just a literary work. The Bible itself -- or at least "half" of it -- considers Satan God's testing agent. Besides, what you fail to see -- others might be able to see. Or can see.

Loki is not a member of the Aesir or the Vanir, in point of fact he is a giant. As you say he was cast out and thus is no longer really a member of the Pantheon. Outcasts might be "cool" but losers aren't. Destroying the world is cool? If I kill all your family and friends in hidious ways is that cool?

The concept of "cool" itself is childish. We teenagers like to be cool; you can't dictate how we are cool. We are just cool. It's just a word. Loki is Thor's brother, no? Then he's as much a god as any.

Evil=killing, raping, causing pain etc. You think thats cool? You're one sick puppy. Just because evil is taboo doesn't make it cool. Oh, being cool is childish. I replaced cool with "good" "honest" "honourable" and some other things I find far more contructive about ten years ago.

Ad hominem. Not work.

Evil = ... ... ... I don't know. Read the social contract theories (or the Bible, heck) and pick your definition. Or invent one. Or just take society's definition as your own.

Cool = you know what? That's one relative concept. What is anime? Geeky or cool?

Doing something because you hate someone?

I'm not even responding to that.

Yeah...

It's called rebellious nature. The opposite of conforming, you know...

[TB666]

Loki is Thor's brother, no? Then he's as much a god as any.

He is Odin's blood brother and yes he is a god.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Everyone can be offended at anything. Don't tell me you're part of the PC crowd, because that's not cool. At all. The "legitimate" offense is often taken from crimes long past in history: "nigger" (sorry if I offended anyone, but censorship is stupid) is offensive because it was once -- and still -- an insult with a connotation of "you're just a slave," or "Hitler" because he committed true atrocities against millions of humans. Satan as a concept is a dispute and far from conclusive. One of my friends (quite a psycho, but that's beside the point) is a self-proclaimed "Satanist" who probably thinks it's cool to have Lucifer as his idol. I could call myself a Satanist just so, like those nobles refered to earlier, to piss people off.

I'm not PC I just don't sse a reason to use words that insult people for fun. Seems to me the only reason Satan is cool is because he is outcast and looked down on.

I assume you're taking the concept of Satan from the epic Paradise Lost? Since you seem to refer to "losing a war" which, if I remember correctly, did not really happen. That was just a literary work. The Bible itself -- or at least "half" of it -- considers Satan God's testing agent. Besides, what you fail to see -- others might be able to see. Or can see.
The concept of "cool" itself is childish. We teenagers like to be cool; you can't dictate how we are cool. We are just cool. It's just a word. Loki is Thor's brother, no? Then he's as much a god as any.
Ad hominem. Not work.

Sorry, you lost me with the whole "what you can see." Yes Satan is God's testing agent but it seems to me Satanists ignore that as well. I did reference Job above, actually. Satan rebelled against God, so we are told, and was cast down. Milton's Paradise Lost is an elaboration of the Bible, which is a bit spartan on details. My point stands.

You're wrong about Loki, he was not Odin's brother. His parents were the giants Farbauti and Laufey. The idea that he was Thor's or Odin's brother was, I believe, a late attempt to reintegrate him. He was however a companion of both Odin and Thor during their travels.

Evil = ... ... ... I don't know. Read the social contract theories (or the Bible, heck) and pick your definition. Or invent one. Or just take society's definition as your own.

If it offends my concience then its bad, at the extreme end of the scale, with baby eating etc. is evil.

It's called rebellious nature. The opposite of conforming, you know...

Non-conformity is a joke. All the Goths around at the moment think they are non-conformists, what they've missed is that they're just conforming along with everyone else. Want to be a real non-conformist? Become a Librarian.

[A.Saturnus]

You're one sick puppy.

Well, thanks. Not something I've been called yet. Broadens my horizon I guess.
Fortunately Antiochus already addressed most of your points and he did so very well.
But look, I'm not the enemy ok? I do not advocate killing anyone because it's cool. I'm not a member of the Church of Satan. I've read LaVey's Satanic Bible and while I entirely agree with him in his chaptor on sexual freedom, I'm rather ambivalent on most parts of the book. However, apart from the esoteric nonsense, it's an interesting read.
Yes, that satanism is really a bit silly. Just like all other religions, when you think about it. But that doesn't make the followers of any religion idiots. Idiots they are only if they get too excited about the absurd little details.

Doing something because you hate someone?

I didn't even use the word 'hate'. I said 'oppose completely'. That opposition may be entirely philosophical. Let's not jump to conclusions, especially if they contain strong words like 'hate' or 'sick puppy'

[Byzantine Prince]

No, evil is not killing, raping, causing pain. Killing, raping, and causing pain are just facts of life. Evil is a mode of the imagination, with no ground in reality. Anyone could call anything evil just because it get's in his way.

What is anime? Geeky or cool?

Ubercool.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, thanks. Not something I've been called yet. Broadens my horizon I guess.
Fortunately Antiochus already addressed most of your points and he did so very well.
But look, I'm not the enemy ok? I do not advocate killing anyone because it's cool. I'm not a member of the Church of Satan. I've read LaVey's Satanic Bible and while I entirely agree with him in his chaptor on sexual freedom, I'm rather ambivalent on most parts of the book. However, apart from the esoteric nonsense, it's an interesting read.
Yes, that satanism is really a bit silly. Just like all other religions, when you think about it. But that doesn't make the followers of any religion idiots. Idiots they are only if they get too excited about the absurd little details.

I said if you find it cool you're a sick puppy. Since you appear to say you don't then you're not. That sounds like contradiction with "evil is cool" though.

I didn't even use the word 'hate'. I said 'oppose completely'. That opposition may be entirely philosophical.

I beg your pardon. I still think setting out with a negative premise is a bad idea. There's an old Roman proverb about not setting out to destroy someone for the sake of it because in the end you don't win, you just destroy your reason for living. Come up with the principles of your religion, then if it goes against Christianity oppose it. Don't start with Christianity and build a religion based on the opposite.

Byzantine Prince, killing raping and causing pain are not facts of life. I'm not going to argue the point because I can tell you're a moral relativist. No-one needs to rape someone.