what does Δημητριος mean

[Marinakis]

just wondering, what would you guys translate Δημητριος into english as Demetrios or Dimitrios? I have seen both

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Demetrios. Eta to an "e" always. I can't think of any exceptions off hand.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Demetrios. Eta to an "e" always. I can't think of any exceptions off hand.

He could be talking about a Slavic transliteration, like "Dmitri" or "Dmitrius" or something. But other than that, yeah, I've been studying Greek for 3 years now, and eta to short "e" pretty much.

Where did you see it as "Dimitrios"?

[hellenes]

He could be talking about a Slavic transliteration, like "Dmitri" or "Dmitrius" or something. But other than that, yeah, I've been studying Greek for 3 years now, and eta to short "e" pretty much.

Where did you see it as "Dimitrios"?

η is what in english is called eta=itta
Now there is this dual universe where while in Greece people have one perception of Ancient Greek pronounciation in the rest of the world (mainly in the west) have invented a pronounciation based on ROMAN scripts...
Now If e=η what is ε? Or if β=b how ones writes v?
Anyway it is fruitless to argue when everyone knows that neither will change their minds.

Hellenes

[Teleklos Archelaou]

η is what in english is called eta=itta
Now there is this dual universe where while in Greece people have one perception of Ancient Greek pronounciation in the rest of the world (mainly in the west) have invented a pronounciation based on ROMAN scripts...
Now If e=η what is ε? Or if β=b how ones writes v?
Anyway it is fruitless to argue when everyone knows that neither will change their minds.

Hellenes

What is the point of this?

Eta is written in english as a plain E if you don't use macrons (which aren't used in english). See, in english, an E can actually be sounded multiple ways. So it can represent both the epsilon and the eta. That's the end of the story. Unless you want to invent a new english letter that is.

[Urnamma]

η is what in english is called eta=itta
Now there is this dual universe where while in Greece people have one perception of Ancient Greek pronounciation in the rest of the world (mainly in the west) have invented a pronounciation based on ROMAN scripts...
Now If e=η what is ε? Or if β=b how ones writes v?
Anyway it is fruitless to argue when everyone knows that neither will change their minds.

Hellenes

And the Greeks largely base it off of wishful thinking, whereas the rest of the world actually studies ancient linguistics. Don't bring this up again. Someone asked an honest question, and I don't feel like closing the poor guy's thread.

[hellenes]

And the Greeks largely base it off of wishful thinking, whereas the rest of the world actually studies ancient linguistics. Don't bring this up again. Someone asked an honest question, and I don't feel like closing the poor guy's thread.

Although the assumption that the Greek academic community, the Greek Universities and all the modern Greek scholars are studying Ancient Greek off wishful thinking is not correct, as I said in my OP neither side will be convinced or had its mind changed on the topic thus any debate is pointless.

Hellenes

[Zenith Darksea]

W.S. Allen wrote an excellent book on this subject, 'Vox Graeca'. I am of the opinion that ancient Greek must have sounded considerably different to modern Greek (consider for a moment just how much Greek grammar has changed), and Allen's arguments are generally conclusive. Certainly in my Greek philology lectures we would transliterate the word as 'Demetrios'. The 'eta' was roughly pronounced as an elongated 'eh' sound, not as an 'i' sound as many Greeks often state (I don't wish to generalise, but all the Greeks with whom I have spoken on this subject are remarkably naive, imagining that their form of the language is exactly the same as the Classical form).

[Urnamma]

Zenith: Great book reccomendation. And I share your opinion completely, what's more.

Also, it is necessary to note that ancient greek had no 'v' sound. It was introduced from Slavic influence in the middle ages.

[Idomeneas]

Zenith: Great book reccomendation. And I share your opinion completely, what's more.

Also, it is necessary to note that ancient greek had no 'v' sound. It was introduced from Slavic influence in the middle ages.

to all the greeks around the (then) known world? i really doubt that. From so many greek or greek influenced populations, from so many texts and psalms (yes at the same time slavs arrived)... if you are right then all those groups and elements of frozen language would sound different. They dont... hmm...

Guys i know we have discussed the issue before here. I dont expect some one to agree with me, after all we are greeks what do we know? The situation here reminds me a greek saying ''John buys drinks, John drinks''. So whatever i or anygreek will write even if he is a reknown professor will simply not count for you cause simply you dont want dialogue. Guess you must have tapes of Leonidas.

I ll say one thing only. Many try to make a case by presenting the everyday spoken slang or transformations by an idiotic state in year 1982 to grammar. Instead of doing that read an official document or an essay or simply an army document. You will be amazed by the quantity of pure ancient words and even grammar rules.

What i suggest is if you really care about the subject break off the books and divine figures (professors that know everything), take a trip to greece and visit not just Olympia Mykonos and Athens, travel in small villages and mountainous areas of pelloponessos, Krete and Macedonia, and find out yourselves the relation of todays Greek with ancient. I dont by any mean suggest they are the same. English are not the same in a span of hundreds of years. But they are closer that you claim.

Thats all from me, but again dont mind me, i dont have some papers on the wall, i just live this language through my self and all my family and people before me.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

My blood and ancestry in and of itself make me absolutely no better at answering a question about my forefathers than anyone else. If someone else wants to make that claim about themselves they can.

[Idomeneas]

My blood and ancestry in and of itself make me absolutely no better at answering a question about my forefathers than anyone else. If someone else wants to make that claim about themselves they can.

that was not my arguement and i hoped you got it. If you think arrogant a Greek (with interest on the subject) saying an opinion imagine how arrogant people that propably never even heard real greek (yes the modern ones) making conclusions so easily and make characterizations as ''wishfull thinking''. I cant say in general but till this moment all the academics i heard speaking Greek sound like german broken telephone. Im sure there are people that spend years in studies and researches over here as well and not only inside their bookselves. I wonder those people can be so certain and absolute in their conclusions?

Anyway as i said ''Yiannis buy the drinks Yiannis drinks them'' so whatever i or anybody will say you will have your own opinion. Its your right, but its not the only one.

[Zenith Darksea]

after all we are greeks what do we know?

Yeah, what do you know?

Ask me to comment on how Old and Middle English were spoken, and I couldn't tell you. But I do know that they were considerably different to today's English (and that's a time difference of 1000-500 years). So when there's a time difference of 2,500 years, how can we expect a modern Greek to intuitively know everything about Classical Greek? Answer - you can't, because he doesn't.

True, it's all opinion these days. But some opinions are considerably more likely (and backed up by scholarly research) to be more believable than others. I mean, imagine that the sounds of a language (one which has been infiltrated by so many different foreign peoples) remained static for 2,500 years. What are the odds of that happening? Close to zero.

[QwertyMIDX]

Especially when it was subject to massive lingustic influences and movements of populations.

[Arman]

Especially when it was subject to massive lingustic influences and movements of populations.

Athens theaters never stoped playing plays in Ancient Greek, and Greeks monks never stopped writing and reading. Do you think they would not noticed that significant changed in sound ipsilon?

The church anthems created in yearly medeival have minor diferences comparing to modern Greek.

Greek professors also study the sources and also have their own arguments. West base it's study on roman enterpritation of Greek alphabeth, which could be initially wrong since some sound was dificult for them to pronounce and to hear. Like word Hoplites that most continue writing like Hoplites while actually it was writen as oplites, from word oplo - weapon, which didn't changed up to now. I spoken with spanish guys and was surpriesed to find out some spanish words the start from ho, pronounce like starting from o, just the same way as word spelled hoplites in pronounced like oplites and spelled like oplites in greek.
There is isolated Greek comunities over the world like Greek colonists living in Black Sea area since Ancient time and Greeks in Central Asia, their language was developing independently and still ipsilon is ipsilon for them.
And BTW Ancient Greek in Greek interpritation still sounds VERY diferent from model, it simply does not sound like drunk German speach version of western interpretation.
Ipsilon could sound like something in between epsilon and ipsilon, but denfinetly not like Ε otherwise there would be no sense to have two version of Ε. I read ancient text on Parthenon, and gramar didn't change as much I you think. Very many words are writen exactly the same way.
If opinion over this issue would be simply opinion of greek patriots not greek academics that spent their live studing Greek I would agree with West.
At least Iliad that supposed to be singed in rithm in Greek academics version sounds almost like song, while it sounds like barking of the dog in record I heared from one of the British Universities, with words being simply not pronouncable composition of sounds. If would hear both version it would be clear for you which one sounds more realistic.
Note to mention that Greeks scholars had never stoped speaking ancient Greek, even in Byzantium time.

As for professiors reputation, so many times they have been wrong and proved wrong by next generation of professors, so I woudn't never really base my opinion on single side statements.

[Arman]

True, it's all opinion these days. But some opinions are considerably more likely (and backed up by scholarly research) to be more believable than others. I mean, imagine that the sounds of a language (one which has been infiltrated by so many different foreign peoples) remained static for 2,500 years. What are the odds of that happening? Close to zero.

I can't tell you how Old English sound, I heared Schakspear play in Old English, and I can't tell you doesn't sound so much diferent so that I would not understand that this is English, people who do not know English but simply know how it sounds would recognized it immidiatelly.

Greek academics do not state that it's absolutelly sounds similar, and as I said it sounds diferent but recognizable as Greek.

If you would compare Western interpritation of Ancient Greek and Greek one, you would be shocked. Nothing similar absolutelly! The most basic words are corrupted to unrecornizable condition. lliad with some constantly barking sounds with absolutelly no rithm, sounds like Martian for Greeks.

Taking into account that when even I who never learned Ancient Greek and not really fluent in modern Greek can understand some Ancient Greek phrases and expressions when reading them. And the phact that the basic words like water, sky, mother, father haven't, truth and very many other words didn't change I trust Greek scolars completelly, at the end they base their knewleges of houdreds of generation Greek scolars that was passing Ancient Greek language knewlage to each other and not learned it by reading Latin text.

[Malrubius]

Shakespeare isn't Old English, it's not even Middle English, it's almost modern English (only 400 years old). We use versions of the Bible from about the same time period with little difficulty.

You might be able to read Middle English and understand it, but to hear and understand would be entirely different. One example: "knight" in modern english rhymes with "night", but in Middle English, the 'k' is pronounced, as well as the 't', giving the word 3 syllables. Within a couple hundred years, there were some big changes to pronounciation, even when spelling was almost the same.

[QwertyMIDX]

Once again, long e and short e, they're 2 different sounds, thus 2 different greek letters can be the same letter in english. Same for ο and ω, they both become o in english, because in english o can make 2 different sounds. I always hear people supporting the "ancient greek is the same as modern" argument use this; it makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
...in addition, the long e has an interesting adventure in Indo-European languages; in some of them it evolved into i while it's retained in others. Kurdish is a fine example of the transition process: ê is preserved in fluency but many would just pronounce it i.
.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hehe. It just makes me think of the changes that Greek underwent going from the Bronze Age to the Classical Period. I suppose that it really was the same in the Bronze Age too? Maybe indo-european itself is pure modern greek too, and it's just the other languages that changed.

Something else that's fun to notice:
Keep in mind that the scholarly view today is that a theta was pronounced closer to a plain "t" than a modern english "th". More like the little extra "huh" noice you make when you say "hat" (which really sounds a little like "hat-uh" if you listen carefully when you say it). But some people claim that the classical theta was pronounced just like modern greek theta's (like a "th" that you would hear in the word "then" in english). But take a look at Linear B if you would...

Transliterations into English like "te-o-i" for the word "gods" (where'd the "th" go?! ) just happen to start with the exact same symbol (consonant group) as a word like "te-me-no" for the word "temple/temenos". There is no difference there, or when you find it in the middle of a word like "mater" (which means mother in english) or "theke" ("to place") in classical greek. There was no difference to them in the way they wrote the sound for sure.

[Arman]

Same for ο and ω, they both become o in english, because in english o can make 2 different sounds. I always hear people supporting the "ancient greek is the same as modern" argument use this; it makes absolutely no sense at all.

You mean that Greek accademics that spent their life studing language of their ancestors are wrong? Saying that ipsilon is ipsilon not epsilon?

[Arman]

.
...in addition, the long e has an interesting adventure in Indo-European languages; in some of them it evolved into i while it's retained in others. Kurdish is a fine example of the transition process: ê is preserved in fluency but many would just pronounce it i.
.

Isn't Kurdish is turkic language?

[Arman]

Transliterations into English like "te-o-i" for the word "gods" (where'd the "th" go?! ) j

In modern greek it pronounced as th-e-i, I don't know how it was pronounce in Ancient Greek tho, probably th-e-o-i.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What I'm saying is that Bronze Age greek shows no difference in writing the dental for "theoi" or "mater" or "theke" or "temenos". Classical greek uses a theta, but it's not that different from classical tau as some people would like to think. It's just got a little extra aspiration after the "t" sound itself. It's only after the classical period that the theta starts sounding like a "th".

[Arman]

Once again, long e and short e, they're 2 different sounds, thus 2 different greek letters can be the same letter in english. Same for ο and ω, they both become o in english, because in english o can make 2 different sounds. I always hear people supporting the "ancient greek is the same as modern" argument use this; it makes absolutely no sense at all.

You write as if you are expert of Ancient Greek languages knowing all aspects of posible interpretation of Greek alphabet symbols. Gah, how are you so sure I wonder?

Unless you really beleave that Greek sceintist are inccompetent idiots that know about Ancient Greek much less than you how wouldn't you be so sure !

It's like if I would be stating that Old English did not existed it was French and simple people language was Saxon wich was pure German so there is no English till 11-13 century at all. And since my opinion is actually also supported by some mainland european accademics. So I would say French sceintists know history of english language much better than British and they are not biased.

You people simply refuse even to try to think that Greek sceintists might be competent and right..... What can I say. There is no prove of any point of view. There is no record of voice, it's all pure assumption. So lets Yani drink the water he bought!

And if Greek Vita would mean B, Cyrill and and Methodi monks would not invent the new "Б" symbol for sound B specifically for cerilic alphabet because Greeks do not have and did never had character for "B" sound.

Lol, what can I say, let Illiad remaint barking Satikek matikek for you :-)
:-) I retire from debate!

[Arman]

What I'm saying is that Bronze Age greek shows no difference in writing the dental for "theoi" or "mater" or "theke" or "temenos". Classical greek uses a theta, but it's not that different from classical tau as some people would like to think. It's just got a little extra aspiration after the "t" sound itself. It's only after the classical period that the theta starts sounding like a "th".

Posibly two sounds were significantly diferent from each other, simply new specific symbol was introduced later.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's sad that you and others like you must malign over and over that any non-greek who tries to replicate the sound of ancient greek. "They sound like dog's barking!" or "they sound like a broken telephone!" People who spend their whole lives working on it, who don't have some kind of political or cultural agenda in working on the ancient pronunciation - none of that matters to you because it sounds different from what you are used to hearing. It's like the southern american hillbilly who says "Hey, dat ain't right! He's talkin' funny talk! Listen to dat 'edujucashun' talkin' there!" when he hears someone pronouncing proper British english. It don't sound right to him, but that don't mean it hain't right.

[Arman]

It's sad that you and others like you must malign over and over that any non-greek who tries to replicate the sound of ancient greek. "They sound like dog's barking!" or "they sound like a broken telephone!" People who spend their whole lives working on it, who don't have some kind of political or cultural agenda in working on the ancient pronunciation - none of that matters to you because it sounds different from what you are used to hearing. It's like the southern american hillbilly who says "Hey, dat ain't right! He's talkin' funny talk! Listen to dat 'edujucashun' talkin' there!" when he hears someone pronouncing proper British english. It don't sound right to him, but that don't mean it hain't right.

You didn't understand. Pure German sounds fine, pure English sounds fine for me... but language they speak do not sound fine.
And BTW did you ever tried polishing pronounciation?
I tried with English... I didn't spoke english at all 8 years ago, you know how many tapes, movies, records, I was listenning to to POLISH pronouciation a little bit. I still have very inpure english after 8 years of polishing. How can you beleave that scentiest without record, without movies not living in natural environtment with some indirect mentions of pronounciations from third party non Ancient Greek sources speak even slightlessly well pronounced Ancient Greek?

Think logically Ancient Greeks could not write how specific symbols pronouced, there is need for other language speaking people to try do describe those sounds in non - Acnient Greek alphabete . Right otherwise Greeks would say ipsilon is pronounced as ipsilon! That's whole explanation they could do.
Now think, who can write description of the language? Egiptians - nooooo they had erogliths, Persians? hm may be but who knows how ancient Persian was pronounced to make comparisions. Well Romans? He are you really sure it was pronounced like they read it now? 2500 years later.
If romands did records, when they did it? 50BC - 150AC... is this Classic era ancient greek?
Read Russian transcription of English alphabete, you will be surprised how diferently they read symbols comparing to the actuall sounds they corespond too :-)

[L'Impresario]

I assume you 're talking about attic.
Personally I wonder what hides behind the term "greek academics", I'm interested in hearing names. It doesn't do them a great service bunching 'em all together.
My first contact with the issue was in the 3rd class of the gymnasio (junior highschool), where, amongst the other school material, we were given a small booklet of about 70 pages written by Professor D. Tobaidis (known by his work on the pontic dialects), intending to familiarise the students with the evolution of the greek language. In the few lines where he deals with pronounciation, Tobaidis doesn't say anything really different than "Vox Graeca", and gives examples like the change of "υ" ("ου" in ancient Greek) to "υ" as ü and finally to "υ" as today's "ι", and notes that this evolution took more than 1000 years in order to be completed.
I wonder if there are people who don't accept that Greek was a phonetic language that ended up keeping an historical orthography...that would be a short discussion heh

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Very few academics today would insist that a classical phi was just like a modern greek phi. Very few of them would insist that a classical theta was just like a modern greek one. Same with dipthongs alpha-iota and some other vowels. Most modern academic opinions are in concert with Allen and his Vox Graeca.

It just so happens that most of the folks who don't agree with this opinion and have a dramatically different point of view would favor a scenario where modern and ancient greek have only the slightest differences, and things like the thetas and phis sound the same.

It also just so happens that most of those people who hold the point of view that greek hasn't changed (except just a teeny-tiny bit) are greeks.