British Troops Beat up Iraqis

[Divinus Arma]

This is a video. I posted it here because I wanted to discuss it rather than add it to the video entertainment thread.


What do you guys think of this?

Video Linky.
**Warning: Do not deviate from this page on the website unless you want to be mucho offended by mucho offensive thingees.**

Being in the military myself, I understand the perspective of the "commentator".

[Proletariat]

Uhm, being in the military, I feel nauseous after listening to the commentator. The guy sounds like he's getting off on watching it.



He sounds really proffesional.

[Divinus Arma]

I didn't say I agreed with his perspective or that I emphathize with him. I merely understand his perspective.

I see the super-charged testosterone aggression-frenzy often enough.

[InsaneApache]

If you want to riot then you have to pay the price. These 'youths' should count themselves lucky. A couple of decades ago they would have been read the riot act and if they hadn't dispersed they would have been shot.

A bit naughty of the NOTW to publish this IMO. This happened just after the invasion and is not recent. Now did I miss something here?

You send your soldiers into a war zone, (without the right kit Mr. Blair ) where they know they can be killed at anytime, you train them to be killers, young lads 18/19/20 years old and then you are surprised that they use violence in a riot situation.

They are not Policemen, they are soldiers. Perhaps next time a detachment from Islington Social Services should be imbedded with our boys, then they could give the 'youths' a cup of tea and a chat.

Next thing you know some desk jockey in Whitehall, who's never even seen an SA-80 will want to file criminal charges against these lads. Now that's really criminal.

[Adrian II]

I didn't say I agreed with his perspective or that I emphathize with him. I merely understand his perspective.

I see the super-charged testosterone aggression-frenzy often enough.

Sure, this sort of behaviour is to be expected in war time. I think it merely demonstrates why war should be seen as a means of last resort, to be used only in self-defense and not as a tool for social or political change -- let alone democratic change in places that have never known democracy. Before you know it, the 'liberators' are razing towns to the ground and calling it a 'fine job'. I mean, this video is peanuts compared to the war crime committed against Fallujah.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sure, this sort of behaviour is to be expected in war time. I think it merely demonstrates why war should be seen as a means of last resort, to be used only in self-defense and not as a tool for social or political change -- let alone democratic change in places that have never known democracy. Before you know it, the 'liberators' are razing towns to the ground and calling it a 'fine job'. I mean, this video is peanuts compared to the war crime committed against Fallujah.

Well said. I hope Americans who claim they're the only ones to get criticism now see that all critics of the war, including myself, criticize these British actions too, even though they are "peanuts" compared to Fallujah. It remains to see whether the British command will take appropriate actions or not.

[Divinus Arma]

Fallujah was an excellent example of superior U.S. Marine Corps urban warfare. Fallujah was a hugely successful operation with odds-defying casualty ratios.

I am less than confident in both of your abilities to accurately assess this situation.

I have friends who were in Fallujah. The operation was conducted with as much care as possible given the circumstances. Residents were given ample opportunity to clear out.

The city was a snakepit of insurgents and now it is quiet compared to the rest of the country. We need to do the same thing to Al Ramadi as soon as possible.

[Adrian II]

We need to do the same thing to Al Ramadi as soon as possible.

By all means. I am sure it will be another fine job.

[rory_20_uk]

Maybe as much care as possible, but still not enough. Using artillery in a city shows not enough care. The maximum care would be troops to go house to house, clearing each in turn. Not an option as the losses would be higher as the insurgents would quickly adapt to this and rig all sorts of traps.

On an aside, was Fellujah the first place "shake and bake" was used, or was that later?

Although many insurgents were killed, many more elsewhere would have been created either by what happened, or what they were told happened. Let's face it, we know Marines are far better troops and inurgents are often kids with ideals and guns. Of course Marines win. But to "train" more kids is to give them further bad ideas and more cheap guns, and as such is very quick, especially with bad press around the place.

Marines are killers, pure and simple. When it comes to taking an enemy beach, few are better. Calming a situation, well they might eventually kill everyone, but that's the only way they know who to calm a populace.

[master of the puppets]

this riot was a show of violence, the marines did as they were trained, with violence, mind you far less violence than... lets say a North Korean or Iraqi or Iranian soldier would have used. and far less violence than any insurgent would use if they had the same capabilities, no one was be-headed, no one outright tortured or beaten to a bloody pulp, it was not undue violence they used, they used there training and ability to make a private show of dominance over the foe and halted the riot. there will be spite, personal anger too, but for the moment they averted a possibly more violent situation.

[Red Peasant]

Well, it's wrong on one count because these troops should be beating up the thuggish little b*****s roaming the streets here in Britain.

However, what happened in this incident was wrong, but it was two years ago and I hope that the News of the World (scummy gutter newspaper) is made to pay compensation to the families of any British troops who are killed in reprisals for this video. A few British deaths would be viewed as a small price to pray by these parasites in the interests of increased circulation.
It's a shame because the situation in Basra has appeared to be relatively calm for some time now and British troops have been handing over ever more responsibilities to the new civilian agencies in the area. I reckon a phased pullout is getting very close.

[TB666]

Well however leaked this did the right thing.
This needed to be outed, the same as justice towards these men involved needs to be open as well so that the Iraqis will see that justice exist and that Britain doesn't support this behavior. These crimes needs to be reported

The soldiers knew they were doing something wrong since they moved behind the walls before beating them obvious so that the public wouldn't see it or anyone from the media either.

[InsaneApache]

Rudyard Kipling hit the nail on the head over a hundred years ago....

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

....................................................................................

Well however leaked this did the right thing.
This needed to be outed, the same as justice towards these men involved needs to be open as well so that the Iraqis will see that justice exist and that Britain doesn't support this behavior. These crimes needs to be reported

The soldiers knew they were doing something wrong since they moved behind the walls before beating them obvious so that the public wouldn't see it or anyone from the media either.

and then taped it

I've heard some drivel but this takes the biscuit.

[TB666]

and then taped it

I've heard some drivel but this takes the biscuit.

Indeed.
They should have realised by now that pretty much any video that gets made will get leaked sooner or later.
Which leads to a interesting question, how many crimes have the allied forces actually done over there that aren't caught on film ??

[InsaneApache]

Indeed.
They should have realised by now that pretty much any video that gets made will get leaked sooner or later.
Which leads to a interesting question, how many crimes have the allied forces actually done over there that aren't caught on film ??

It is an edited video. What happened prior to that snatch squad going in to get some bodies? Looked like a few hundred rioters throwing stones at the troops. Are you telling me that the Police in the UK don't do that during riots, of course they do.

People need to take a deep breath here and look at the wider picture. It was a war zone. People get maimed and butchered in wars. It's not like it's portrayed in Hollywood.

[Redleg]

Maybe as much care as possible, but still not enough. Using artillery in a city shows not enough care. The maximum care would be troops to go house to house, clearing each in turn. Not an option as the losses would be higher as the insurgents would quickly adapt to this and rig all sorts of traps.

You ever been in a city fight? It's easy to armchair general back in safety. During WW2 cities were destroyed in fashions much worse then what happen in Fellujah. French cities, Italian cities, and Beligum cities that were being defend by Germans with civilians in the area. Then lets discuss what happen in several German cities. Artillery was used in all those fights.

On an aside, was Fellujah the first place "shake and bake" was used, or was that later?

Much earlier. Its an old term for an artillery mission that uses both HE and WP shells.

Although many insurgents were killed, many more elsewhere would have been created either by what happened, or what they were told happened. Let's face it, we know Marines are far better troops and inurgents are often kids with ideals and guns. Of course Marines win. But to "train" more kids is to give them further bad ideas and more cheap guns, and as such is very quick, especially with bad press around the place.

The Marines for the most part are the same age or younger then some of the people that are the insurgents. While part of your point is valid, it makes one assume that you prefer the trained military to fight with one hand tied behind their back, and hobbled at the feet.

Marines are killers, pure and simple. When it comes to taking an enemy beach, few are better. Calming a situation, well they might eventually kill everyone, but that's the only way they know who to calm a populace.

Marines are marines with training to accomplish the military mission assigned to them. To call them killers pure and simple is to not understand the mission of the military in warfighting.

[TB666]

Are you telling me that the Police in the UK don't do that during riots, of course they do.

Yes they do but only when the suspect is resisting arrest(atleast in Sweden).
These boys were already handcuffed and went along peacefully with soldiers.
Any police that would beat a handcuffed suspect gets punished for it.
And that is just for a single punch.
These guys kicked these boys several times when they were lying on the ground including one kick in the nuts which was totally pointless.
They should have brought them in and locked them up, nothing more nothing less.
If they would have gone by the rules this mess wouldn't have started in the first place.

[rory_20_uk]

Redleg, that was rather my point. The two options are to assault in the old fashioned way and destroy a large part of it - thus inflaming the locals even further, or doing an extremely long house to house that would result in loads of casualties. Neither is going to help in the long term in Iraq.

In Iraq they are fighting with one hand tied behind their back - as they are part soldiers and part policemen, and lots of the locals don't even want them there. hence why the pure military part of the campaign was so brief - America going no holds barred and this part is taking so long as the military is "hobbled at the feet".

As you say, it's easy to pick holes in a less than ideal situation. So what would I do? Although the British do have the easier area, the not responding and holding back does seem to be paying dividends, even if its purely then leaving the Iraqis to kill insurgents and vice versa.

I'd say a staged withdrawl would be the best solution. It is a shame that Bush has linked this with utter failure, and hence has nailed his flag to the mast. Americans are not going to sort other people's problems out for them. No one likes a smart arse, especially when they are a different religion.

Get the Arabs to form a coalition force and help lok after one area. At the very least when that area is a complete mess they can't look so smug at you...

It is a shame but I feel that at the current point in time we can do nothing for Iraq, bar possibly aid when requested. Let them fall down into their own pit, but at least that way we're not being dragged down there with them.

[InsaneApache]

I think you will find that when prisoners are taken then the first thing that happens is that they are subdued...as in given a kicking.

It's as much a psychological thing as physical. In effect showing who's boss and don't mess with me...etc etc.

TBH I've seen worse in Leeds on a Saturday night.

[TB666]

I think you will find that when prisoners are taken then the first thing that happens is that they are subdued...as in given a kicking.

It's as much a psychological thing as physical. In effect showing who's boss and don't mess with me...etc etc.

So you need to beat the crap out of someone who is already cooperating to make them cooperate ??
If that's how the police works in Great Britain then I feel sorry for british people.

[Major Robert Dump]

They were reaching for weapons! The soldiers feared for the safety of themselves and innocent civilians in the area!

[rory_20_uk]

You've obviously not met many of the British...

A climbing frame was designed by a Finnish company. Had to be strengthened for export to the UK as apparently Finnish youth don't trash things like children's climbing frames when they get bored.

In Britain, "cooperation" is less common than "has been overpowered".

[Redleg]

Redleg, that was rather my point. The two options are to assault in the old fashioned way and destroy a large part of it - thus inflaming the locals even further, or doing an extremely long house to house that would result in loads of casualties. Neither is going to help in the long term in Iraq.

That particuler battle was not about a long term solution. The nature of city fighting is even more dangerous for the combatants and the civilians in the area.

In Iraq they are fighting with one hand tied behind their back - as they are part soldiers and part policemen, and lots of the locals don't even want them there. hence why the pure military part of the campaign was so brief - America going no holds barred and this part is taking so long as the military is "hobbled at the feet".

The United States is conducting occupation duties in Iraq. Which requires the soldiers to act as policemen. It happened in German and Japan after WW2 also. The difference in the situations is that German and Japan did not have an active resistance to the occupation.

As you say, it's easy to pick holes in a less than ideal situation. So what would I do? Although the British do have the easier area, the not responding and holding back does seem to be paying dividends, even if its purely then leaving the Iraqis to kill insurgents and vice versa.

Sounds okay in practice - however when applied the media will paint a different picture.

I'd say a staged withdrawl would be the best solution. It is a shame that Bush has linked this with utter failure, and hence has nailed his flag to the mast. Americans are not going to sort other people's problems out for them. No one likes a smart arse, especially when they are a different religion.

Actually I believe there is a staged withdrawl. Not by statement of number of personal but where the current status of Iraq is right now. The 4th Infantry Division has units dedicated to training Iraqi units. (1st Hand information from my brother who is a 1SG who is training Iraqi soldiers along with the rest of his company.)

Get the Arabs to form a coalition force and help lok after one area. At the very least when that area is a complete mess they can't look so smug at you...

Wouldn't work for exactly the reason you alreadly stated.

It is a shame but I feel that at the current point in time we can do nothing for Iraq, bar possibly aid when requested. Let them fall down into their own pit, but at least that way we're not being dragged down there with them.

To late - the United States and the United Kingdom have an obligation to repair infrastructure and provide a transition to civilian control by the very nature of the invasion and occupation.

[InsaneApache]

To late - the United States and the United Kingdom have an obligation to repair infrastructure and provide a transition to civilian control by the very nature of the invasion and occupation

It's the least we can do considering we destroyed it. Given the lack of WMDs the fact that Blair said right from the off that this war wasn't about regime change, we now have an obligation, nay a duty, to leave that land better than we found it.

In my lifetime I have never felt ashamed to be British, this Iraq war has got me close to it though. We were duped by the politicians on both sides of the pond. If Chirac and Putin weren't so obviously corrupt and getting lots of spodooliks from, let's just say, dodgy regimes, the perhaps we wouldn't have been fooled as easily.

However as Roger Daltey once upon a time said, 'We won't be fooled again'.

[rory_20_uk]

To be fair, the British people were pretty much unanamously opposed to the war, as was the Monarch. Only the politicians were blinded by the "facts". Even then I think Blair was looking to the future. Whether personally or for the UK I'm not sure...

Give the Iraqi's the money to tender for bids and get it all sorted. It's their country - let them act like it.

[Tribesman]

An interesting post from the 1st battalion Light Infantry website .
What a shower of shites, don't care whether ordered to carry out attack or not, a handful of tossers who I'd quite happily entertain round the guardhouse, as a serving member of the regiment can't wait to meet these guys and enlighten them on the world of fairness and the differnce between men and boys. Pathetic, cowards who hide behind each other. As for the cameraman one day son one day



Anyway it looks like the British might as well withdraw now , the Iraqis have now stopped all co-operation with them .

Does anyone find it wierd that Murdochs media release this in Britain , Would they do the same in America /
Perhaps the wily old git is shifting away from supporting Blair and Co.

[Kanamori]

I feel nauseous after listening to the commentator. The guy sounds like he's getting off on watching it.

My thoughts too. The derranged man taping it sounds as if he belongs in a mental ward. Watching it, I wondered if somebody added the commentary to make it seem even worse.


Beating up hooligan kids isn't exactly the way to end a violent rebellion that views the occupation as unjust.

It is simple: the kids break the law, they get the punishment the law prescribes not a punishment from some lawless soldier blowing off steam.

[Papewaio]

For all the defenders of these actions think on this:

It was two years ago.

Then the tape was leaked to the public very recently.

Suddenly there are 4 guys on charges for their actions.

So... unless there is photographic evidence and it gets leaked no one gets prosecuted.

Chance that an incident is photographed? Say as much as 10%
Chance that it is leaked to the press? Say as much as 10%

So about 1% of all crimes get reported and actioned on if that.

Wow the military is soooooooooo honourable that it has to be bent over the barrel and have the weight of public opinion shoved up their collective arses before they prosecute wrong doings.

Military Honour = 0
Islamic Militants killing each other over cartoons = 0
Free Press = 2

Free Press is the heavy weight champ.

[Divinus Arma]

Tribesman: What is your answer to the Iraq war? What is your plan?

[Proletariat]

I didn't say I agreed with his perspective or that I emphathize with him. I merely understand his perspective.

I know, Div. Just wanted to point out the guttural bullying sound of his voice bothered me more than the actual footage, even though it's pretty disgraceful to release someone from a headlock so you can get in a good headbutt.

Pape, do you know what the numbers of soldiers who face UCMJ over there are like?