Help with starting off - SHOGUN

[blazer-glory]

First hello to everyone. Im the new boy here and alittle battle shy! ;)

Ive only just got hold of SHOGUN and while the manual explains alot it does'nt really help with starting a new campaign. What Id like is a few pointers in what I should be doing when first starting, what to build and where etc and any basic advice that will get me off the ground and on the path to victory!

Thanks.

[econ21]

The best advice for the campaign is rather faction specific. Some factions are poor and need to be really aggressive - attacking from the first turn or so. I would include Shimazu and Mori in this. Other factions are sitting on gold mines, whether literally or figuratively, so can afford to invest in buildings. This includes some of the eastern ones, notably Hojo. Others have to grapple with a divided kingdom (good luck!). I think Shimazu is a good starter faction as its strategic situation is fairly uncomplicated - kick out Imagawa and then turn on Mori.

OK, but some generic advice. In the early game, you can use your Daimyo to give you an early advantage in battles. His few heavy cavalry can turn the tide of a small battle, but beware of running him into the front of spears (flank charges are good if the front is engaged). I like "balanced" early forces, with some yaris backed by some archers. Ashigaru are actually ok against cav - although cav is rare early on - and since they are fast, can act as early light cavalry, running down routers. Maybe take one or two for that role. Generally, I like to move offensively on the campaign map, but fight defensively on the tactical map. Use overwhelming force to seize a province without bloodshed (the AI retreats) and try to force him to come at you, especially in a mountainous province where you can camp on a hill. Avoid attacking bridge provinces unless you have overwhelming numbers. Conversely, such provinces make excellent defensive bottlenecks. Try to advance so as to minimise your frontline, but maximise the number of neighbouring provinces you could attack, forcing the AI to spread its defenses. Be aware that the strategic AI cheats, IIRC, and can sometimes react to your movements - it's annoying, but at least it means the game is challenging (harder than MTW and RTW, IMO).

In terms of building, try to find a nice province with iron to set up troop building provinces. Also look out for provinces that give bonuses for particular unit types and develop the infrastructure for them. Take note of what your faction advantages are and try to leverage them. I like to have limited troop building provinces - maybe one for archers, one for cav and one for spears. The key tech buildings to aim for are those for warrior monks - which are awesome anti-infantry infantry - and for cavalry - which are essential for hovering up routers. Beyond that always keep upgrading those provinces for armour (that's why you need the iron) and weapons etc. In terms of economic upgrades, ports and mines seem good - but only upgrade agricultural land that is described as rich or something similar. The more hungry factions may have less luxury to make such investments though.

Have fun!

[blazer-glory]

Many thanks, thats very helpful. :)

One thing I did noticed, when I was just messing around, was when I invaded a nearby enemies region the enemy was'nt there! No castle,no fortress, not even an army ,nothing. How come there was no one there? It was occupied as it had units postioned in it on the map.

[econ21]

In STW, the enemy armies often "bug out" if they think they have little chance of stopping you in a battle. They will retreat to a neighbouring province. It is one of the things that makes the game challenging - they are not that easy to kill off piecemeal.

You can try to avoid this by cutting off their retreat - isolating provinces so the armies have no where to retreat. In MTW, I remember taking wiping out a faction with 3 provinces with no losses. I did this by attacking all 3 provinces simultaneously with overwhelming force - each of the 3 enemy armies retreated into one of its two neighbouring provinces, but since I was taking them all, they just disappeared instead.

[blazer-glory]

lol Thanks. :)

[blazer-glory]

Whats the best Clan to start with? The Uesugi and the Hojo look like they could be good for first timers. (??)

[econ21]

Whats the best Clan to start with? The Uesugi and the Hojo look like they could be good for first timers. (??)

Those are strong clans, so they are not bad choices. I tend to stay away from them because their provinces are so rich. I have the suspicion that the early game with them will be decisive, because whoever controls the East has a really strong economic base for conquest and I prefer a longer campaign. However, I also suspect the early game is a little tough for them - the East seems to be fiercely contested (Shinano, in particular, is a magnet for invaders).

As I said previously, personally, I'd recommend Shimazu. It is relatively quiet where they are and so you can have a fairly relaxed, simple beginning. The problem for them is the late game when they meet the Hojo horde or whoever won the snakepit fight for the East.

There's a nice recent thread in the Shogun forum here on favorite factions, so you will pick up a lot of perspectives reading that.

[Quietus]

You might also want to start with Uesugi, since they are relatively richer. I did not play Mongol Invasion and I believe they made the bridges wider in MI, hence the bridge chokepoints in the East won't be as harsh.

Don't try to hold Shinano if you get attacked by a strong force. Withdraw you forces and concentrate on Hojo. There's another province in there Northwest of Shinano, the name I forgot, but you may have to withdraw from it as well.

Also, NEVER make alliances with your neighbor .

In STW, you only need to hold certain strategic triangles in the West and you've basically won the game. The problem is I can't remember the names of the provinces. But Shinano is always part of the triangle. I'll post it later.

[Asmodai]

Don't try to hold Shinano if you get attacked by a strong force. Withdraw you forces and concentrate on Hojo. There's another province in there Northwest of Shinano, the name I forgot, but you may have to withdraw from it as well.

Also, NEVER make alliances with your neighbor .

I cannot agree with that.
Every fraction have favoured enemy, and favoured ally. Playing Takeda, i found, that allying with Imagawa was easy, and that alliance was long and strong. And I had difficulty with Oda and Hojo. Hojos are treacherous, and Oda rejected every alliance attempt.
Takeda have main advantage cos they have cavalry, while the other fraction may build only archers or yari.
First thing to remember playing Takedas. Dont bother with provinces surrounded by mori clan. Sooner or later they will be taken by that clan. Concentrate on protecting Kai province, and expand in this teritory. Attack Hojo clan ASAP, attacking that province with river. You must strike the next one with Hojo castle, efectively cutting them off the reinforcements. Seal the alliance with Imagawa, and wipe the Hojo clan, taking that rich provinves. Uesugi usualy hit the falling Hojo from the back, taking their provinces. After conquering as much Hojos lands as you can, Attack uesugi. First attack must be targeted at that huge, long province, where their castle is. That province have very huge income, and is main troop producer for Uesugi. Use cavalry to deal with mobs of archers, while tying their yaris with yours.
And after anihilating Uesugi as well, you will have probably have more incom, than any other fraction. And expand further.

In battles, try to learn in how efectively use every unit.

Yaris(samurai - leave ashigarus at home) are best for keeping enemy cavalry at bay, or tying enemy yaris.
When No-dachi will be available, use them to deal with enemy Yaris.
Monks are excelent unit for killing enemy infantry.
Archers soften enemy units, lowering their morale before melee. Also, they are useful in defending battles.
Cavalery have couple roles on battlefield.
First, they are excelent to deal with enemy archers.
Also, flanking is easy with cavalry. And when enemy breaks and starts fleeing, cav chase them, killing more enemies.
Naginata are best at defence. Use them defensively to pin some hard unit in place.
Heavy cav is best used against monks, naginatas and enemy cav.

Basic tactic is to form Yari wall (few units of Yari samurai), and engage the enemy. You may soften them first with archer fire, or flank them with cav.
For breaking enemy Yari wall, use monks or nodachi.

I cannot help you further, cos exploring many battle tactics is the essence of TW.

Good Luck

[PseRamesses]

First hello to everyone. Im the new boy here and alittle battle shy! ;)

Ive only just got hold of SHOGUN and while the manual explains alot it does'nt really help with starting a new campaign. What Id like is a few pointers in what I should be doing when first starting, what to build and where etc and any basic advice that will get me off the ground and on the path to victory!

Thanks.

As a newbie you should start off as the Shimazu and secure the three islands asap. You´ll also be the first to come in contact with the Portugese and the Dutch which will give you some advatages like gunpowder/ guns. You can also convert to christianity and the churches will generate an extra income. However your new faith will generate some unrest in newly conquered provinces. As what to build, begin with money generating things as conquest is based on money.

[cannon_fodder]

After a bit of experimentation, I found the best thing to do (as far as your military is concerned) is to swamp your enemies with hordes of Yari Samurai. Seriously, you don't actually need anything else. Of course, you won't get the maximum possible enjoyment from the game this way.

I would say the Uesugi are the best starting clan.

[blazer-glory]

One thing that crossed my mind was how can you tell if your defeat was down to lack of numbers and not bad tatics?

[Ludens]

One thing that crossed my mind was how can you tell if your defeat was down to lack of numbers and not bad tatics?

You cannot. The difference between victory and defeat can depend on so many things, like terrain, weather, troop types, numbers, tactics and the number of command stars the general has, that it is often hard to say whether a battle is winnable. It takes experience to determine which odds you can take-on under given conditions, and as your experience grows you will be able to win against worser odds.

So the answer to your question is: experience, but that is not a helpfull one. When I started Shogun, I needed a big hill to gain a decisive advantage. When I had played it for half a year, I could trash armies almost twice my size (and I don't consider myself a good player).

[blazer-glory]

Yikes! Looks like I got alot to learn! :s

[Ludens]

Yikes! Looks like I got alot to learn! :s

Unfortunatly, I haven't played Shogun in a long time (actually, I barely play any game lately), so I am probably back at square one too .

Welcome to the Org, blazer-glory.

[econ21]

One thing that crossed my mind was how can you tell if your defeat was down to lack of numbers and not bad tatics?

I think you'll know. Sometimes, a battle just seems to work like clockwork. I feel like Hannibal in the "A-team" - I just love it when a plan comes together. Other times, it's like a nightmare as warrior monks come crashing out a wood into your flank and are amongst you before you can reform your lines (ah, good times...).

On the numbers - you should win on a 1:1 battle. You are a human, not a stupid machine. Soon you'll be fighting with near full stacks and since the AI can only bring one full stack onto the field at any one time, you should only lose due to attrition (you may end up praying for the battle timer to run out, as the reinforcements keep pouring in and you were out of arrows long ago.)

On the tactics - ask yourself, did the battle go according to your plan? Or were you reacting to the AIs? You'll soon be able to tell whether you were in control.

[Quietus]

I cannot agree with that.
Every fraction have favoured enemy, and favoured ally. Playing Takeda, i found, that allying with Imagawa was easy, and that alliance was long and strong. And I had difficulty with Oda and Hojo. Hojos are treacherous, and Oda rejected every alliance attempt.
Takeda have main advantage cos they have cavalry, while the other fraction may build only archers or yari.
First thing to remember playing Takedas. Dont bother with provinces surrounded by mori clan. Sooner or later they will be taken by that clan. Concentrate on protecting Kai province, and expand in this teritory. Attack Hojo clan ASAP, attacking that province with river. You must strike the next one with Hojo castle, efectively cutting them off the reinforcements. Seal the alliance with Imagawa, and wipe the Hojo clan, taking that rich provinves. Uesugi usualy hit the falling Hojo from the back, taking their provinces. After conquering as much Hojos lands as you can, Attack uesugi. First attack must be targeted at that huge, long province, where their castle is. That province have very huge income, and is main troop producer for Uesugi. Use cavalry to deal with mobs of archers, while tying their yaris with yours.
And after anihilating Uesugi as well, you will have probably have more incom, than any other fraction. And expand further.

As Takeda. I just attack Mori and ally with Oda, but never ally with Imagawa.

Oda can either attack Uesugi, Mori or Imagawa. If I ally with Imagawa and Mori, Oda can also ally with them. But Oda cannot attack me and break the alliance.

One thing that crossed my mind was how can you tell if your defeat was down to lack of numbers and not bad tatics?

Just compare numbers and troop quality.

Don't try to kill all the units, just rout them. Once they rout, then you can pounce en masse. Keep your forces close and try flanking with Yari Cavalry or No Dachi samurai on Wedge formations.

Have you tried chain routing? Just rout one end of the enemies' line and the whole line will break apart like a zipper. :)

edit: :cough: spelling :cough:

[blazer-glory]

Ive started playing this on the easy setting. Is there alot of difference between the different skill settings?

[Ghost of Rom]

Generally each difficulty level will add morale to enemy troops which makes them fight longer before running. The ai will also add a few more calculations above easy so that it's tactics are a bit better. (i.e. on easy the enemy will not ambush). The normal setting is not overpowering for a beguinner.

[econ21]

I think normal is the "fair" difficulty level, where neither you nor the computer get any bonuses in combat. I try to play at that level as then the unit match ups are intuitive and feel right. To be honest, with Shogun I don't think I played above normal - IIRC, the game is not easy. Last time I played it as Oda, the AI fought me to a standstill - Hojo horde ). Never did that in MTW or RTW.

[blazer-glory]

To be honest, with Shogun I don't think I played above normal - IIRC, the game is not easy. Last time I played it as Oda, the AI fought me to a standstill - Hojo horde ). Never did that in MTW or RTW.

Even more reason for me to play it on easy!

[blazer-glory]

Still a little confused about how units can move about the map. Can they only move to adjancent regions or can they be selected and placed on any of your territories?

[econ21]

IIRC, only adjacent by land; but you can move from one port to any other port (sea movement).

[blazer-glory]

Thanks again. :)

[Ludens]

Generally each difficulty level will add morale to enemy troops which makes them fight longer before running. The ai will also add a few more calculations above easy so that it's tactics are a bit better. (i.e. on easy the enemy will not ambush). The normal setting is not overpowering for a beguinner.

I thougth the S:TW difficulty bonuses were identical to M:TW: at easy you get a morale bonus; at expert the A.I. gets one. Also the A.I. gets more clever at higher difficulty (and receives a slight stat bonus as well).

[Martok]

I thougth the S:TW difficulty bonuses were identical to M:TW: at easy you get a morale bonus; at expert the A.I. gets one. Also the A.I. gets more clever at higher difficulty (and receives a slight stat bonus as well).

This is my understanding as well. On Normal and Hard, neither the player nor the AI gets any sort of bonus/cheat; everyone's on a level playing field.

[Ludens]

This is my understanding as well. On Normal and Hard, neither the player nor the AI gets any sort of bonus/cheat; everyone's on a level playing field.

I understood that the A.I. did get slight stat bonuses on hard and expert. From Froggy's Beginner's Guide:

There are four difficulties, easy, normal, hard and expert. Your difficulty will decide how much money you start off with, any bonuses given to you or the AI and what tactics the AI will use on the two maps. Starting funds are as follows:
Easy = 10000 florins
Normal= 8000 florins
Hard = 6000 florins
Expert = 4000 florins
On easy the player will get an extra +4 to morale in battle, making it harder for the AI to rout your troops. On expert the AI get this bonus. Normal and hard don't give anyone a bonus. The AI will use different tactics on the battlefield depending on your difficulty. Here is a list provided by GilJaySmith, one of the developers of Total War:
- On expert the AI gets a morale bonus - on easy the player gets one
- On hard and above, AI skirmishers will try to avoid being pincered
- On easy the AI will not consider going into loose formation to avoid being shot at
- On easy the AI will not consider outflanking, double-envelopment, or stop-and-shoot tactics
- On easy the AI won't move troops out of the way of castle walls that may be about to collapse
- On easy the AI will try to hide rather than flee if the battle is going badly
- On easy the AI will not try ambushes
- On easy the AI will not try the 'appear weak' battle plan
- The AI is more likely to deploy in woods on harder difficulties, and less likely to camp near the red zone on easier difficulties
- The AI is more likely to consider scouting the map to find the rest of your army if it can't see it all on higher difficulties
- On easy the AI will not skirmish
- On higher than easy, the AI will specifically consider sh00ting at your artillery
- On easy the AI will generally attack rather than defend, and will not consider withdrawing for a much longer time
- On higher than easy, the AI will check to see if it's marching into enfilade fire when attacking your main body
- On easy the AI may come out of a wall breach to chase you if you attack and are repulsed

In addition to these changes LongJohn (another developer) says the following: The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can't remember the exact figure).
On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.

But this is about M:TW, not S:TW.

[blazer-glory]

Surely there must be advantages given for the computer AI, how else could it be made harder for the player?

[Ludens]

Surely there must be advantages given for the computer AI, how else could it be made harder for the player?

The beauty of M:TW and S:TW was that at higher difficulty levels the A.I. became smarter. I am afraid this is not the case in R:TW.

[blazer-glory]

Mmmm seems a bit odd. Its like taking a step backwards.