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Thread: the turkish "bag" incident
i saw the turkish movie, "The Valley of the Wolves—Iraq" [a thread was made about it a few months ago] and it got me started on some looking around for stuff about it.
As you may know, this flick is setting box office records there. Apparently it portrays America in Iraq as monstrous, massacring civilians and removing prisoners’ organs for patients in the U.S., Israel and England.
Dispiriting. But what really caught my eye was this section of a recent Knight-Ridder story: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13871545.htm
Yusuf Kanli, the editor in chief of the Turkish Daily News, said the film is grounded in a real event known as the “bag incident,” which cemented the movie’s popularity in Turkey.
“Abu Ghraib is a deep wound, but it’s war, and war is never clean,” Kanli said. “But what happened in July 2003 can never be forgotten by any Turk.”
In that incident, U.S. troops arrested 11 Turkish special-forces officers in northern Iraq and walked them from their headquarters with bags over their heads. It was considered a bitter betrayal by a trusted ally. Turkish newspapers dubbed it the “Rambo Crisis.” Recent opinion polls rank it as the most humiliating moment in Turkish history.
What interests me about this is not only did I have no opinion about the “bag incident,” I had NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT.
In other words, it’s possible for America to do things to other countries that they consider “the most humiliating moment” in their history…and even anti-American America-haters like myself can’t be bothered simply to know it happened. We're (Americans) that insulated in our day to day lives from so many things happening in the world.
I’m curious to know if others knew more or less than me about the bag incident. (Well, more or the same; you couldn’t really have known less.)
As you may know, this flick is setting box office records there. Apparently it portrays America in Iraq as monstrous, massacring civilians and removing prisoners’ organs for patients in the U.S., Israel and England.
Dispiriting. But what really caught my eye was this section of a recent Knight-Ridder story: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13871545.htm
Yusuf Kanli, the editor in chief of the Turkish Daily News, said the film is grounded in a real event known as the “bag incident,” which cemented the movie’s popularity in Turkey.
“Abu Ghraib is a deep wound, but it’s war, and war is never clean,” Kanli said. “But what happened in July 2003 can never be forgotten by any Turk.”
In that incident, U.S. troops arrested 11 Turkish special-forces officers in northern Iraq and walked them from their headquarters with bags over their heads. It was considered a bitter betrayal by a trusted ally. Turkish newspapers dubbed it the “Rambo Crisis.” Recent opinion polls rank it as the most humiliating moment in Turkish history.
What interests me about this is not only did I have no opinion about the “bag incident,” I had NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT.
In other words, it’s possible for America to do things to other countries that they consider “the most humiliating moment” in their history…and even anti-American America-haters like myself can’t be bothered simply to know it happened. We're (Americans) that insulated in our day to day lives from so many things happening in the world.
I’m curious to know if others knew more or less than me about the bag incident. (Well, more or the same; you couldn’t really have known less.)
forward that to mike caracciolo. i need to know what the big man thinks about it before i can form my own opinion. he's always happy to see me.
awesome reference
Originally Posted by Big_John:
forward that to mike caracciolo. i need to know what the big man thinks about it before i can form my own opinion. he's always happy to see me.
forward that to mike caracciolo. i need to know what the big man thinks about it before i can form my own opinion. he's always happy to see me.
Originally Posted by Big_John:
forward that to mike caracciolo. i need to know what the big man thinks about it before i can form my own opinion. he's always happy to see me.
Capital idea. I think he has already stated an opinion relevant to the subject in question:forward that to mike caracciolo. i need to know what the big man thinks about it before i can form my own opinion. he's always happy to see me.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/basen5...self_11_05.wmv
Originally Posted by :
Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
Originally Posted by :
Wow, can you show any resource on this ?
Are you not familiar with your countries troop deployments over the border LEN , they have been there for quite a while now .
If there is even a squad of them, they are not there for "liberating the Iraqis" for sure.
Its not a squad , it has varied between 2 and 12 thousand troops , and no they are not liberating Iraqis they are having problems with the Kurds
So you disprove yourself. You should not mix up incidents and purposes while you should remember that Northern Iraq (over a specific parallel) was kinda special zone and Turkish army can not be counted "invaders" if the presence is still valid.Wow, can you show any resource on this ?
Are you not familiar with your countries troop deployments over the border LEN , they have been there for quite a while now .
If there is even a squad of them, they are not there for "liberating the Iraqis" for sure.
Its not a squad , it has varied between 2 and 12 thousand troops , and no they are not liberating Iraqis they are having problems with the Kurds
So you disprove yourself.
?????????
Northern Iraq (over a specific parallel) was kinda special zone and Turkish army can not be counted "invaders" if the presence is still valid.
Errrrrrr.....what has the northern no-fly zone protecting Kurds got to do with Turkish troops on the ground fighting Kurds?
You should not mix up incidents and purposes
I am not mixing up incidents and purposes , but it seems that you might well be .
?????????
Northern Iraq (over a specific parallel) was kinda special zone and Turkish army can not be counted "invaders" if the presence is still valid.
Errrrrrr.....what has the northern no-fly zone protecting Kurds got to do with Turkish troops on the ground fighting Kurds?
You should not mix up incidents and purposes
I am not mixing up incidents and purposes , but it seems that you might well be .
Originally Posted by :
You should not mix up incidents and purposes
I am not mixing up incidents and purposes , but it seems that you might well be .
It is nonsense to argue paradoxally. So forget it.You should not mix up incidents and purposes
I am not mixing up incidents and purposes , but it seems that you might well be .
From reports it seems that the 11 who were captured were sent into Iraq to knock off a few Kurdish leaders.
If that is true they are lucky all they got were bags over their head.
Surely attempting to assassinate someone is enough of a reason to be detained. If they weren't an 'ally' they would have ended up in prison... so a bag over the head is just a slap on the wrist.
If that is true they are lucky all they got were bags over their head.
Surely attempting to assassinate someone is enough of a reason to be detained. If they weren't an 'ally' they would have ended up in prison... so a bag over the head is just a slap on the wrist.
It is nonsense to argue paradoxally. So forget it.
It was you who questioned the existance and scale of the Turkish troop deployments , and then tried to link them to the no-fly zone LEN .
It was you who questioned the existance and scale of the Turkish troop deployments , and then tried to link them to the no-fly zone LEN .
What interests me about this is not only did I have no opinion about the “bag incident,” I had NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT.
Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
The incident is what happens when you have two armed groups running around the same place looking for other armed groups , yet not co-ordinating with each other .
It was lucky they only detained them and didn't just shoot them .
Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
The incident is what happens when you have two armed groups running around the same place looking for other armed groups , yet not co-ordinating with each other .
It was lucky they only detained them and didn't just shoot them .
I seem to remember it vaguely. It just nevered registered as anything that major with me. I certainly remember alot of speculation in the media about the possible problems that a Turkish presence in Iraq could cause with the Kurdish population.
Here's a contemporary CSM article on "incident". It's unclear what the special forces team was doing in northern Iraq. I'm not too well informed on the issue, but presumably, Turkish forces had interests in keeping an eye on the Kurdish populations of the Iraqi/Turkish border region.
Here's a contemporary CSM article on "incident". It's unclear what the special forces team was doing in northern Iraq. I'm not too well informed on the issue, but presumably, Turkish forces had interests in keeping an eye on the Kurdish populations of the Iraqi/Turkish border region.
Originally Posted by :
Washington has so far offered only vague justifications for the July 4 arrests. According to unconfirmed Iraqi Kurdish intelligence claims, the 11 men taken into US custody were part of a plot to assassinate the new Kurdish governor of Kirkuk.
Washington has so far offered only vague justifications for the July 4 arrests. According to unconfirmed Iraqi Kurdish intelligence claims, the 11 men taken into US custody were part of a plot to assassinate the new Kurdish governor of Kirkuk.
Originally Posted by :
Turkey long feared war in Iraq could lead to an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, with incalculable effects on its own restive Kurdish minority. For years it supported Baghdad as a guarantee of Iraq's territorial integrity. Faced with growing US determination to end Saddam Hussein's regime, though, it deepened relations with the Iraqi Turkoman Front, who were also raided by the US Friday.
Turkey long feared war in Iraq could lead to an independent Kurdish state in the north of Iraq, with incalculable effects on its own restive Kurdish minority. For years it supported Baghdad as a guarantee of Iraq's territorial integrity. Faced with growing US determination to end Saddam Hussein's regime, though, it deepened relations with the Iraqi Turkoman Front, who were also raided by the US Friday.
Originally Posted by :
Now, analysts suspect, US forces may be tiring of Ankara's Kurdish paranoia. "With the rest of Iraq in chaos, Iraqi Kurds are Washington's only reliable allies" says political commentator Mehmet Ali Birand. Though US commanders accept Turkey's reasons for wanting to keep troops in northern Iraq, he adds, "they may be coming round to the Kurdish view that [Turkey] should leave right now."
I'm sure some will say this isnt the whole story either, but clearly what's depicted in the movie about the event is a gross exaggeration. Im sorry their pride was so hurt by this, but I'm not sorry it happened based on what I know of the situation.Now, analysts suspect, US forces may be tiring of Ankara's Kurdish paranoia. "With the rest of Iraq in chaos, Iraqi Kurds are Washington's only reliable allies" says political commentator Mehmet Ali Birand. Though US commanders accept Turkey's reasons for wanting to keep troops in northern Iraq, he adds, "they may be coming round to the Kurdish view that [Turkey] should leave right now."
Oh well, not the sort of "bag" incident i thought it was... sorry...
Turkish movie about Iraq, bag that
11 Turkish soldiers were captured with their heads being "bag"ged. Yeah, it is humiliating and has the biggest boost on anti-American side's enthusiasm. The date of the incident is another coincidence that some find it even more annoying.
Originally Posted by :
Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
Wow, can you show any resource on this ? If there is even a squad of them, they are not there for "liberating the Iraqis" for sure. I am proud of my country not accompanying the invasion.Come on Soly , you must have found it funny that while Turkey was refusing to let coilition forces cross its border into Iraq (even after a huge wad of cash was offered to them) they already had 10,000 troops in Iraq themselves .
About the movie -since I missed the hot discussion about the movie, I need to tell what I think about it here :
Kurtlar Vadisi (Valley of The Wolves) is a true TV success in Turkey. No matter how disgusting and corruptive it is, I reluctantly have to admit that it is a huge success in Turkish broadcasting history. The series were about an agent collapsing the Turkish kingpins mafiatic organizations one after another.
However, Turkey has a dense young population, many living in the suburban areas, unemployed, poor and uneducated. The series portraying how mafia men live enormously effected these young and blank brains. It replaced the concept of "power" into "bullying way of attitude, formation of gangs, using the violence to make others accept your presence" and so on. I watched only one part of it from the start to the end. The so called Turkish rambo cutted one of the mafia leader's throat instanly in a scene and I was shocked : "You can't be broadcasting this in Turkey". Yeah, many people including adults love the way those mafiatic *******s live.
Using the potential hate against US ignited back with the annoying "bag" incident, the movie and the cast sing the anthem of the Grey Wolves and all alike people who are unaware of what nationalism is. I am highly disgusted the way Grey Wolves possessing the nationalism and patriotism from the start and now this. I hate the series and the movie.
What's more it is another tool of opium-izing the Turkish society. The series were followed by Big Brother competitions and the likes with a bunch of other celebrity and other jelly-bean, colorful stuff. Turkey is sometimes called "Little USA" here, yeah we are unfortunately alike. And now we oppose where we "imported" these BS.
Kurtlar Vadisi (Valley of The Wolves) is a true TV success in Turkey. No matter how disgusting and corruptive it is, I reluctantly have to admit that it is a huge success in Turkish broadcasting history. The series were about an agent collapsing the Turkish kingpins mafiatic organizations one after another.
However, Turkey has a dense young population, many living in the suburban areas, unemployed, poor and uneducated. The series portraying how mafia men live enormously effected these young and blank brains. It replaced the concept of "power" into "bullying way of attitude, formation of gangs, using the violence to make others accept your presence" and so on. I watched only one part of it from the start to the end. The so called Turkish rambo cutted one of the mafia leader's throat instanly in a scene and I was shocked : "You can't be broadcasting this in Turkey". Yeah, many people including adults love the way those mafiatic *******s live.
Using the potential hate against US ignited back with the annoying "bag" incident, the movie and the cast sing the anthem of the Grey Wolves and all alike people who are unaware of what nationalism is. I am highly disgusted the way Grey Wolves possessing the nationalism and patriotism from the start and now this. I hate the series and the movie.
What's more it is another tool of opium-izing the Turkish society. The series were followed by Big Brother competitions and the likes with a bunch of other celebrity and other jelly-bean, colorful stuff. Turkey is sometimes called "Little USA" here, yeah we are unfortunately alike. And now we oppose where we "imported" these BS.
Wow, can you show any resource on this ?
Are you not familiar with your countries troop deployments over the border LEN , they have been there for quite a while now .
If there is even a squad of them, they are not there for "liberating the Iraqis" for sure.
Its not a squad , it has varied between 2 and 12 thousand troops , and no they are not liberating Iraqis they are having problems with the Kurds .
Are you not familiar with your countries troop deployments over the border LEN , they have been there for quite a while now .
If there is even a squad of them, they are not there for "liberating the Iraqis" for sure.
Its not a squad , it has varied between 2 and 12 thousand troops , and no they are not liberating Iraqis they are having problems with the Kurds .
Originally Posted by solypsist:
i saw the turkish movie, "The Valley of the Wolves—Iraq" (..) Apparently it portrays America in Iraq as monstrous, massacring civilians and removing prisoners’ organs for patients in the U.S., Israel and England.
Some reviews wrote that Gary Busey portrays a 'Jewish-American doctor' who removes the organs. If his Jewishness is played up in the movie, we can guess to what audiences that little gem caters: anti-Semites all over the Middle East. But is this true, or were the reviewers looking for trouble where there is none? In that case, the reviewers may be catering to an American audience that wants to discredit this movie as soon as possible because it criticises the United States.i saw the turkish movie, "The Valley of the Wolves—Iraq" (..) Apparently it portrays America in Iraq as monstrous, massacring civilians and removing prisoners’ organs for patients in the U.S., Israel and England.
So what's the story on Busey, Solypsist?
Originally Posted by AdrianII:
So what's the story on Busey, Solypsist?
I read some web posts saying that his Jewishness only comes up in the later part of the film when he contrasts his faith with that of the maverick American officer, Billy Zane, who is a crazy evil evangelical Christian. It was said that the movie bashed Christianity more than Judaism. So what's the story on Busey, Solypsist?
But regardless, the whole Jewish doctor steals organs thing is just too close to the nastiest anti-semitic tales for my liking. Soly has a stronger stomach than I.
As to the topic of Turkey's "humiliation", isn't it a sign of a dangerously insecure and nationalistic mood that the arrest of 11 people can be seen as a country's greatest humiliation? The Iranians bagged a bunch of British troops on the Iraqi border a year or two back and it hardly registered a flicker on the richter scale with the UK public. I mean losing an Empire might be a national humiliation (or, in these politically correct days, maybe having created one in the first place is the true blot on the national copy book). I can even see losing a land war in Asia as causing a scarr on the patriotic pysche. But just having 11 special ops soldiers arrested...???
I never knew about the incident until i read a piece online trying to shame Zane and Busey for being in the movie. The men were not wearing their uniforms, and for that they are lucky, since the soldiers who detained them might very well have thought they were Hussein military and shot them on sight.
The turkish military takes itself very seriously, and in international training scenarios and spec force competitions these guys frequently drew the admiration of other soldiers because of their grit.
If American filmakers are going to revise history then why can't Turkish filmakers?
The turkish military takes itself very seriously, and in international training scenarios and spec force competitions these guys frequently drew the admiration of other soldiers because of their grit.
If American filmakers are going to revise history then why can't Turkish filmakers?
Turkey is Turkey, Simon Appleton. Ottomans are our descendants but Turkey is not a continuation state of Ottoman Empire. The Turkish parliament founded in 1920 started the struggle of independence by opposing the "mandated" Ottoman government. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was even declared to be caught and killed by the gov't. So, the related incident we're talking about here was one of the most humiliating moments of Turkey's history. And it was not just the arrest itself it was how we saw it here -their heads in bags.
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
It was you who questioned the existance and scale of the Turkish troop deployments , and then tried to link them to the no-fly zone LEN .
Kurds had an autonomous state over there where Saddam's physical power was severely low. It was you who questioned the existance and scale of the Turkish troop deployments , and then tried to link them to the no-fly zone LEN .
LEN-san I believe the Empire that Simon-san is referring to is the British Empire, and the lost land war in Asia USA's Vietnam...
BTW I think Turkey's destruction of the Ottoman Empire is something to be proud of.
And Britians transformation of the Empire to the Commonwealth something to be proud or as well... can't wait for the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne...
BTW I think Turkey's destruction of the Ottoman Empire is something to be proud of.
And Britians transformation of the Empire to the Commonwealth something to be proud or as well... can't wait for the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne...
Originally Posted by :
LEN-san I believe the Empire that Simon-san is referring to is the British Empire, and the lost land war in Asia USA's Vietnam...
It was quite misunderstandable to me since Ottoman Empire was a "lost" one literally. Thanks LEN-san I believe the Empire that Simon-san is referring to is the British Empire, and the lost land war in Asia USA's Vietnam...
Originally Posted by :
BTW I think Turkey's destruction of the Ottoman Empire is something to be proud of.
Yeah, I'm glad that you have the point. States rise, grow and die. And Ottoman Empire in its late years was out of luck to survive and was corrupted as hell.BTW I think Turkey's destruction of the Ottoman Empire is something to be proud of.
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