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Thread: Shields?

  1. #1

    Default Shields?

    Do they use shields in WoT. Dont they just use 2 handed swords?

  2. #2
    Member Member Werthead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    There was a lengthy discussion on this. Some military units are described as having shields in the books (such as the Legion of the Dragon) but a lot of armies aren't described as having shields or not. I think the conclusion was that a lot of the armies in the mod will have shields, apart from the likes of the Aiel who'll have bucklers instead.

    Of course, that was a while backs and the situation could be different now.

    Note in the books that massive missile bombardments from archers and crossbowmen seem to be relatively rare, so the use for infantry to have shields does seem to be reduced.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Shields?

    Didn't the mercs defending Camelyn have shields?

    I'm sure shields were used, its just that none of the sword weilding main characters use them (bladeforms needing 2 hands and all), same with warders methinks, and a lot of the other troop fellers use 2 handed polearm type weapons.

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    Child of the Light Member GreyHuntr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    As a student of medieval martial arts, I find that Rj's combinations of weapons and armor make very little sense. Two handed swords were not in very wide use until after the invention of plate armor to replace the shield. I don't think I've seen a closed-face helm or anything more sophisticated than a simple breastplate mentioned anywhere in the books. The Seanchan's overlapping armor could be an exception, but that would not explain the weapons found in Rand's continent.
    "The Children have authority where there is Light. Where the Light is not, we bring it!"

  5. #5

    Default Re: Shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyHuntr
    As a student of medieval martial arts, I find that Rj's combinations of weapons and armor make very little sense. Two handed swords were not in very wide use until after the invention of plate armor to replace the shield. I don't think I've seen a closed-face helm or anything more sophisticated than a simple breastplate mentioned anywhere in the books. The Seanchan's overlapping armor could be an exception, but that would not explain the weapons found in Rand's continent.

    its a fantasy book, its not our world. the author is entitled to artistic license

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    Significante Member Antagonist's Avatar
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    Unhappy Re: Shields?

    The Aiel and the Seanchan certainly use them, but it seems that in the books they have fallen out of use in the westlands. Originally I got the feeling that this was because RJ just didn't like the whole sword + shield dynamic, and preferred to describe Japanese-style duels involving single two-handed longswords. I don't know if that's actually the case, but it's certainly my initial impression.

    Another thing to bear in mind is the whole question of "chronological setting" (ie what time period the world most closely resembles) I had an argument about this with a friend of mine just the other day. Personally I think it's a mistake to assume that just because it's a fantasy book it must be "medieval" While some parts of the world, such as the Borderlands have a definite "middle ages" vibe to their military, the more southern lands don't really feel that way, to me. The armies seem to be made up mostly of cavalry and pikemen, with few missile troops. The way cavalry, for example, are described (armour is only a breastplate and helmet, no shield, armed with a sword or lance) is evocative to me of the 16th or 17th century in Europe, not the Hundred Years War or something.

    I get the impression that shields aren't widely used because battles are thought of as primarily cavalry engagements, with infantry mostly pikes and other polearms as against archers or crossbowmen. IIRC it actually states in the Guide that Mat's extensive use of crossbowmen in the Band is unusual for that reason, and more resembles warfare during Artur Hawkwing's day, in which armies were larger and considered more sophisticated. The Guide also has a little box thing in which it describes the range of weapons and armour that are used, and there is again no mention of shields.

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  7. #7
    Child of the Light Member GreyHuntr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    I'm fully aware that it is a fantasy setting, and that it doesn't take place in medieval times. Speculation is that it takes place far in the future. Which makes sense, as the society has a lot of modern values such as equality of women, and nationalism. My main problem with it is that there doesn't seem to be any logical reason for the weapons to be the way they are, there is no natural progression. Weapons and armor progress along with each other as new ways are formed to counter them, and in a world where nobody wears any significant protection on the arms or face, a two handed sword is not a very good idea. The swords used in Rand's era are the same used 3000 years earlier, there should have been at least SOME alteration in their design during that period.
    "The Children have authority where there is Light. Where the Light is not, we bring it!"

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    WoT fanatic Member 4th Dimension's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Well problem with people from WoT universe is that they are stupid when it somes to inventions. They couldn't use a new invention unles it hit's them in the face

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    Member Member Werthead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    The 17th Century thing is something that RJ has said a lot. And it's total BS. They had GUNS in the 17th Century. At close enough range musket shot will go through full plate like it's tin foil, which is why heavy armour was abandoned (since mobility to avoid getting shot in the first place is more important). Mat and Aludra seem to be single-handedly inventing gunpowder-based weaponry in the WoT world but they're not commonplace.
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  10. #10
    Shae'en M'taal Member Andreas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Well, don't you think that he know better then you which age it is most a like? I think he means that in how people live and so on it is mot like the 17, which I think kinda fits, since the peasants didn't have a situation that was as hard as the medieval situation whne the books started, and in courts and stuff ti seems more 17 then medieval. Weapons is not everything that counts:) And I have to point out that we have not seen any decription of a armoured soldier, except Shienarans, that I can recall now which means we cannot say for certain how they are armoured.
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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Well, I think you'll like our interpretation of the units in WoT...

  12. #12
    Child of the Light Member GreyHuntr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andreas
    And I have to point out that we have not seen any decription of a armoured soldier, except Shienarans, that I can recall now which means we cannot say for certain how they are armoured.
    He describes everyone's armor. Cairhienin with their bell-shaped helms, Children with their chainmail and conical helms, Tairen noblemen with their gilded breastplates, and even the Illian rebels with their rusty discs sewn onto leather jerkins. What isn't mentioned is any sort of protection for arms or legs beyond simple chainmail.

    As for the mod, I think it would be good if they included shields and such, as it would expand the tactical variety of units.
    "The Children have authority where there is Light. Where the Light is not, we bring it!"

  13. #13

    Default Re: Shields?

    Yeah, none of the main characters use shields, probably because shields and a bashing, brute force aspect to single combat, but regular soldiers probably used them (they don't have the extensive sword training after all).
    I may be wrong, but i seem to recall the Children using shields, but my mind may be playing tricks on me. In addition, i assume that the cavalry use shields in general, as two-handed weapons are real awkward on horseback (the whole neck of the horse is somewhat inconvenient).

    Clovis
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Shields?

    Hmmm i dunno because most cavalry seem to have lances, swords and then a horsebow (im thinking of saldeans and the Band cavalry that attack the seanchan rear) and it would be very hard to manage all of that plus a shield while on a horse.

    I think borderland infantry should not have shields as i imagine them as fighting with samarai like swords.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Shields?

    With the cavalry, the idea is that the can hang stuff they're not using on the saddle. So when they are using their bows, the sword is sheathed, the lance is in it's carrier and the shield is slung over the saddle or something.

    A lance, in particular, is a one handed weapon, and since almost no one can fight ambidexterously, a shield is something for the other hand. Same with the sword, really.

    Clovis
    "Forward, the Light Brigade!"
    Was there a man dismay'd?
    Not tho' the soldier knew
    Someone had blunder'd:
    Their's not to make reply,
    Their's not to reason why,
    Their's but to do and die:
    Into the valley of Death
    Rode the six hundred.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Shields?

    Hmmm but there never mentioned in WoT that i can think of...

  17. #17
    Shae'en M'taal Member Andreas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeryHuntr
    He describes everyone's armor. Cairhienin with their bell-shaped helms, Children with their chainmail and conical helms, Tairen noblemen with their gilded breastplates, and even the Illian rebels with their rusty discs sewn onto leather jerkins. What isn't mentioned is any sort of protection for arms or legs beyond simple chainmail.

    As for the mod, I think it would be good if they included shields and such, as it would expand the tactical variety of units.
    I should refrase my self... He do not describe anyone in full. He never say the tairens have trousers, but we have to assume that....
    Last edited by Andreas; 02-21-2006 at 18:02.
    Supporter and retired teammember of the Wheel of Time mod.

  18. #18
    Child of the Light Member GreyHuntr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    He describes sleeves, shoes, dresses, house roofs, horse bridles, the way people are standing, the color of the sky, and detailed facial expressions that most people wouldn't even notice in real life. RJ is one of the most descriptive writers I've ever seen. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but with so much attention to detail in so many areas, arms and armor is a HUGE one to overlook. Given the descriptions he gives, if they wore any type of body armor besides that already stated it would most certainly have been mentioned. He always mentions being able to see people's faces, even through the barred helms of the Andoran Queen's Guards, so if a closed helm existed anywhere in the book he would have made a big deal about their face not being visible.
    "The Children have authority where there is Light. Where the Light is not, we bring it!"

  19. #19
    Shae'en M'taal Member Andreas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyHuntr
    He describes sleeves, shoes, dresses, house roofs, horse bridles, the way people are standing, the color of the sky, and detailed facial expressions that most people wouldn't even notice in real life. RJ is one of the most descriptive writers I've ever seen. I'm not saying he is a bad author, but with so much attention to detail in so many areas, arms and armor is a HUGE one to overlook. Given the descriptions he gives, if they wore any type of body armor besides that already stated it would most certainly have been mentioned. He always mentions being able to see people's faces, even through the barred helms of the Andoran Queen's Guards, so if a closed helm existed anywhere in the book he would have made a big deal about their face not being visible.
    Well, I have always had the feeling that jordans writings are focused away from the military parts. We know the look in detail on all Elaynes dresses, but we do not know that much about the normal guards equipppment.

    Because of this, we have to do some improvising when we do the models and their equippment.
    Last edited by Andreas; 02-22-2006 at 19:16.
    Supporter and retired teammember of the Wheel of Time mod.

  20. #20
    Child of the Light Member GreyHuntr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shields?

    For the mod, I wholeheartedly approve of improvising. RJ's weapons would not make much sense for RTW converted armies.
    "The Children have authority where there is Light. Where the Light is not, we bring it!"

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