Time to rethink South Korean support?

[Shadow]

Seen them fight to - 3 days of a running gun battle in the hills of South Korea between the special forces units of infilitrators from North Korea, and the South Korea Marines that were tasked to catch or eliminate them.

Do you know the name of this battle? Cause all i know is the battle of Bloody Ridge and Heartbreak Ridge and both lasted more then 3 days.

[itchrelief]

Do you know the name of this battle? Cause all i know is the battle of Bloody Ridge and Heartbreak Ridge and both lasted more then 3 days.

Not sure if it would have an official name, as he is probably referring to one of the various incidents where a handful of NK commandos infiltrated and shot things up, ie that one time when the submarine ran aground and the stranded commandos onboard ran amok for a few days. Numbers of troops involved would probably not qualify to be called a "battle" more like an "incident" or such.

[Samurai Waki]

The Battles that I really know in detail during the Korean War was the Assault on Inchon and the Battle of the Frozen Chosun.

[Redleg]

Do you know the name of this battle? Cause all i know is the battle of Bloody Ridge and Heartbreak Ridge and both lasted more then 3 days.

It doesn't have a name. It happen in 1994 when North Korea attempt to send in 10 to 12 inflitators into South Korea, and they got spotted by the ROK Marines.

THere is normally a shooting incident between North Korea and South Korea every year. Some of them make the papers here in the United States and Europe, but most often they don't.

[Redleg]

The Battles that I really know in detail during the Korean War was the Assault on Inchon and the Battle of the Frozen Chosun.

Oh there are more then a few major ones. I suggest reading on the Pusan Perimeter sometime. Interesting Reading.

[Redleg]

Not sure if it would have an official name, as he is probably referring to one of the various incidents where a handful of NK commandos infiltrated and shot things up, ie that one time when the submarine ran aground and the stranded commandos onboard ran amok for a few days. Numbers of troops involved would probably not qualify to be called a "battle" more like an "incident" or such.

THere battles for the small squads of men that fight them. But your right in the papers and reports its just a cross boarder incident. But the firefight I heard in the hills while I was there - sounded very similiar to a battle.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

North Korea is in bad shape while South Korea is prospering, why the hell would they want to lose US support, unless the South Korean military is up to the challenge?
why do people never appretiate what they have got!

[Fragony]

...oh i get it...HEY SHUT UP, we WON the korean war and there would be no more communist north korea if that idiot truman had let McArthur finish his campaign.

Easy mia muca, it was just the irony in the sentence that I found amusing, I know shit about that particular war.

[ShadesPanther]

Easy mia muca, it was just the irony in the sentence that I found amusing, I know shit about that particular war.

Or at the way none of the allies were mentioned.

[KafirChobee]

...oh i get it...HEY SHUT UP, we WON the korean war and there would be no more communist north korea if that idiot truman had let McArthur finish his campaign.

Sorry, but you really need to revist the actual history of the conflict - Truman kept his head, involved us because it was in the law to do so. MacArthur knew that a land war in Asia was bad news, and then thought himself immortal - and wante to invade China. Mac blew it, Truman shut the moron down. Mac had his day ... After Inchon it was done.

Fact is Mac is still "Dug out Doug", to a few still living. Regardless of the propagandic picture .... old Dougy was begging for FDR to save him ... and he did. Find a communications officer from the Orphans of Battan (No Momma, n0 pappa, no Uncle Sam) - they'll straighten your act out ... like right now.

[KafirChobee]

No news leaves Korea, like Redleg said - the tales end up next to the obits or not at all. If you are not paying attention. they pass by without notice. Hell, the North sank a ROK cruiser in the mid-60's (1964) and no one in the U.S. heard about it 'til the 70's.

In July 1967, I and a few friends sat on a pitchers mound (softball field at Camp Casey, Korea - outside Dongduchon) drinking beer and watching fireworks on a hill south of the camp. The vets there (I had just been reassigned from hospital - Vietnam) told me it was war games - infantry pretending to be in 'nam. Then a runner from CQ ran by (heading to the USO for the OD) and one of the guys asked "wtf man?" ... to which he answered that the fireworks were real. Personally, I was always a bit slow (maybe why I got tipped) - but, the only question I had was where are the guns. As it turned out, the MP's and infantry in that fight captured like a ton of mortars and rockets from the caves (the number of kills was never publicized - do know we had 3 wounded, no purple hearts rewarded - 'cause we were not in a war zone ... in July of '67'). Thing is, had they set up - it would have all been coming down on the Camp.

I do know Korea, from almost 40 years ago. And I do know that our government (past administrations that knew or understood international relations) prefered to keep it low key ('til now). The one decision of Jimmy Carter's that I totally disagreed with was his downsizing of troops there (Ronny did him one better though by again cutting them in half again... Clinton is the only president to increase our military presence there - Bush ain't done jack but spew words - or maybe he has a secret build up ... God forbid).

From Jan. 1966 - Dec. 1968, there were over 5,000 incidents in Korea (300 GI's killed or wounded - and forgotten). Ships were assaulted (even stolen - Pueblo), patrols and convoys ambushed, and helicopters shot down. It was more of a psyche war -for both sides, still it some times erupted. Btw, their psyches were better than ours .... nothing like listening to "When snow comes (grounds solid for tanks ... and ours are all Korean war vintage - theirs brand new USSR's), Joe Comes." [Joe is what we called the North Koreans - think it was because that is the only name they knew us by during the "police action"]. Listen to: :when snow comes joe comes, when snow come joe comes ...... every 10 and a half seconds for hours (actually), days, months ... one begins to believe it. Truth: Infantry serving in Korea during the Vietnam conflict had the highest volunteer rate for Vietnam of any other area (doubt there were many volunteers from Germany).


Again, I wasn't in 'nam long enough to know wtf was going on - I got wounded because some guys thought it would be funny sending an FNG up a pole to fix a non-existing break in a line ... funny haha. Nothing was or is funny about Korea. Take my word, we don't ever want to fight there ever again.

Wake up Chesty, if you don't believe me. God bless you, Chesty, where ever you are. Just come wake these f's up that think it would be a good idea to be fighting for something in or about Korea - today.

Or, When snow comes joe come. when snow comes joe comes, when snow comes joe comes, when snow comes joe comes .... Get the picture?

[KafirChobee]

Having read the history, i'm inclined to form a different opinion. If we had followed his advice from the start, and carried the sea and air war into china and along china's coasts, we would have won the war.

Actually it would be more appropriate for you to say "the governments released history', or haven't you heard that Bush43 just stopped the release of documents from 1954?

To even conceive that we could have fought China conventionally and won is ignorance, arrogance and plain stupidity in a combination only someone that has never seen the films of that war can proclaim. I recall the first "Why we are here film", a Captain was standing before the board (screen), the view was from a ridge ... flairs were being fired ... it was all black and white. The wind was moving the grain in the fields .... the captain pointed out that the grain were men ... the Chinese, then all H broke loose in the film, and I for one knew I did not want to be at war in Korea.

Now, you can take your little chunks of what you think you know about the Korean "Police Action" and praise the lord your Mac, you can even think that somehow Mac was the good guy in committing us to war with China and Truman the bad guy because he didnot again drop the bomb. But, you really need to look at the reality of it - or atleast talk to someone that was in it that doesn't think of themselves a hero .... so much as a survivor. Survivors tell the truth, those that think themselves heroes for being there tend to bend it (the truth) ... they also tend to exaggerate in the need for the conflict or their value in it (or the value of it).

Still a few Korean War vets out there (quiet tho they be) go find one ... and if they say Mac was good ... Truman bad ... find a real one.

[Tribesman]

GC , that MacArthur , he wouldn't be the same MacArthur who said things like , it will only take 30,000 troops to defeat the North , the Chinese will never cross the border and if they did they would be slaughtered before they reached Pyongang , or it will all be over by Christmas ?
Or are you talking about a different General Douglas MacArthur ?

[HunkinElvis]

...To even conceive that we could have fought China conventionally and won is ignorance, arrogance and plain stupidity in a combination only someone that has never seen the films of that war can proclaim. I recall the first "Why we are here film", a Captain was standing before the board (screen), the view was from a ridge ... flairs were being fired ... it was all black and white. The wind was moving the grain in the fields .... the captain pointed out that the grain were men ... the Chinese, then all H broke loose in the film, and I for one knew I did not want to be at war in Korea...

Koreans have seen those war films every June 25, and they certainly remember watching thousands of communist troops swarming across the battlefield. Even the North Koreans outnumbered the South Koreans and the Americans in tanks, artillery and troops during the early part of the war. The Koreans showed these films so that Koreans won't forget the war. The South Koreans actually wanted to continue the war until they unified Korea, but now the North Korean army is much stronger than it was during 1950. Even the North's airforce is a threat. Although the North has an outdated airforce, it outnumbers the South Korean and the American airforce in Korea. This is why South Koreans do not want another war. Unfortunately, there are people who think the war was just some platoons skirmishing each other. Because of that, they tend to jump to the conclusion that South Koreans are being nationalistic when they want peace.
The reason why there were more casualties during the Vietnam War was that the Vietnam War was much longer than the Korean War. Both wars' number of casualties are a bit similar.

Having read the history, i'm inclined to form a different opinion. If we had followed his advice from the start, and carried the sea and air war into china and along china's coasts, we would have won the war.

The Soviets certainly wouldn't have let a main ally fall. In fact, there were Soviet pilots fighting over Korea. (This was way before the relationship between the Soviets and the Chinese turned sour).

80% of the troops, and damned near all the funding was American. And yet the "allies" had the gall to question american policy, threaten american interests, and be a pain in the rump throughout the war. And then when it came time for the armistice commission, they had the audacity to deny america a negotiating position proportionate to it's war effort.

Those allies don't deserve mention.

The number of South Korean soldiers were similar to the number of American soldiers. So I wouldn't say 80% of the troops were American. Here are the list of each army's strength. There were a lot more soldiers involved than there were shown in the list because the Allies rotated their soldiers. The Koreans lost a lot of their men; otherwise there would be a lot more Korean soldiers.

As an American with Korean parents, I understand how the Koreans and the Americans feel. I currently live in South Korea, and I clearly see the need for the Far East to stay friends.

[HunkinElvis]

What I find ironic is that it was the fellow Americans who wanted a ceasefire. The South Koreans didn't want a divided country, and they knew that the war was unfinished business. Now the Koreans are tired of reminding themselves about the war. The North and South want to become friends and one country like they were before. They are trying to solve the WMD problem through peace and diplomacy. Bush's Axis of Evil statement came at the wrong moment.

The thing is, Americans and Russians were able to negotiate their own WMD problem, and become friends. People were happy when Gorbachev shook hands with Reagan. I'm glad that there were people in Europe and America who applauded when the two Kims did (or tried to do) the same.

[BigTex]

Who in their right mind would swap freedom guaranteed by Washington for dictatorship and destitution imposed by Pyong-Yang?

Slice of a part of your military spending on South Korea and use it for free holidays to Chinese and North Korean 'summer camps' for those spoiled brats. Should get some sense into them

.
BRILLIANT BRILLIAN!!!!
Now if we could only do that with all the hippe's, socialists, and chinese goverment lovers in the U.S.A.!!!!1

[rory_20_uk]

Both Koreas want to be united. Of course. The only thing that they disagree on is who rules the united country. The North is a one trick pony with one card to play repeatedly - MAD. If the North had been isolated effectively as soon as the USSR had stopped bankrolling it in 1991, it is unlikely that it could have survived so long. Propping it up means today is better, but it means that the troubles multiply for tomorrow.

[Redleg]

Both Koreas want to be united. Of course. The only thing that they disagree on is who rules the united country. The North is a one trick pony with one card to play repeatedly - MAD. If the North had been isolated effectively as soon as the USSR had stopped bankrolling it in 1991, it is unlikely that it could have survived so long. Propping it up means today is better, but it means that the troubles multiply for tomorrow.

Prior to the old man's death - there were numerous times that the North Korean Army deployed toward the DMZ. This was in the time period of 1990-1994. Each action was done to force everyone to the table to grant concessions to the North.

The world was not willing to bet that North Korea was bluffing in any of those instances. Neither was the United States willing to sacifice its allies, Japan and South Korea, in a gamble that North Korea was only bluffing.

The Old Man had stated several times during the last 5 years of his life that the two Koreas would be united before his death, and absolutely no one could predict what he would do with any regulatory.

Hindsight is always 20/20 especially when one begins to discount and disregrad the circumstances and situations that were present at the time.

PS try sitting on the DMZ when its active. It happens every year, several times in fact.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kafir':

Do not treat the China of 1951 as though it were the China of 1981+.

China truly had a "peasant" army in 1951, with comparatively little artillery, and far less armor than modern formations of equivalent size would deploy.

Their attack achieved the level of success it did because of the poor use of intelligence by decision makers in the region (yes, including MacArthur -- this is one strategic assessment he blew outright; his defense of the Phillipines and insistence upon returning there are arguable, but on this one he simply screwed the pooch), that allowed the Chinese "volunteers" to attack strung out units in poorly developed defense positions. Even so, while pushing us below the 38th parallel, the Chinese lost more than a million men, including many of their best formations. They had, more or less, shot their bolt. On the defensive in the hills of the North, they enjoyed their greatest success, since tactical conditions favored the infiltration/sniping/attrition tactics at which their army was truly experienced.

The US, had they amphib'ed into portions of China that were less rugged, would have held a distinct tactical advantage. Our air support, artillery, and mechanization gave us a huge advantage whenever engagement ranges went up -- as was all too often lacking in the hills/mountains of N. Korea. The Chinese forces were huge, but under-trained and prepared for mechanized warfare.

Strategically, of course, the USA could never have "conquered" China and any tactical success would have, at best, allowed us to remove Chinese support for N Korea. The Communists were adept guerillas of long experience and any effort at occupation that lasted more than a few months would have been painful. Even a limited conventional attack would have been a pricey effort by our standards (to go after China with anything aside from air/naval strikes). What prevented us from seeing this as an option was our concern that the Russians would have gone in -- and they were mechanized and experienced just as were we even if you set aside the possibility of both sides lobbing A-bombs.

[KafirChobee]

Seamus':

I don't discount your arguements, but as far as the Chinese "Shot (shooting) their bolt" - well, in a sense so had we. The Republicans called it "Trumans war", and the majority of Democrats weren't none to pleased about it either. After all Ike was elected on the promise "I will go to Korea" - meaning he would find a way to end the hostilities (which evolved into ongoing sporadic guerilla activity - from both sides, but the North ....... they just won't let it go.).

Try to remember the beginning of hostilities as well. The Pusan perimeter, our loss of entire NG (and Marine Reservist) Divisions, and those poor saps they tossed in there from Japan as fodder to hold on 'til the "real" Army could get there. Personally, I think it was overly ambitious for us to believe we could reunite Korea after the Inchon landing; but that is more hindsight than anything.

Today, however, the idea for us to withdraw from Korea would send a message that the U.S. is once again deserting an allie. As to the ROK citizens that want us gone? Well, I suspect there have always been some - I recall the student protests in Seoul even when I was there. And so it may always be. Still, our presence there does allow for stability in the region and limits the threat from the North.


BTW: "Frozen Chosen" is not a reference to the Chosen Reservoir - all service personell that serve (or have) in Korea are members of the group. We are the Frozen Chosen - as in chosen to freeze our butts off (of course the Summers are quite increadible too .... the extremes of the rainbow that is the ROK).