Crazy Workaround for Battlefield Fortifications

[oudysseos]

As to why this particular bee's in my bonnet- I've been rereading Caesar's Gallic Wars and at the same time some popular layman's history books- Rubicon and In the Name of Rome, and it is clear to me that strategic and tactical forifications played a major role in Roman success- I'm thinking of Crassus against Spartacus, Pompey against Mithridates and Caesar numerous times, most famously against Vercingetorix. I think that it's fair to say that in the last example history would probably have gone very differently if it weren't for Roman engineering. (and not only the Romans- Alexander's siege of Tyre changed an island into a peninsula)

I understand that the basic game engine cannot be changed, and that the forts that we can add to the campaign map can conceptually represent systems of fortifications in the same way that spies represent systems of espionage and betrayal. I have no problem with that- after all, we are still meant to be able to use our imaginations a little.

But-

I have this idea for possibly adding battlefield palisades wherever one pleases. What I have thought up is adding a new unit, called pioneers or engineers (praefectus fabricam? there is a latin title for this) who would be represented in the recruitment queue by a little dude with some tools (or an apron, compass and hammer?), and with high recruitment and upkeep costs.
On the battlemap, this unit would be represented by a line of tall pointy sticks with no movement points, the same defense value as a city pallisade wall and maybe some extra hitpoints. No attack value. You would position your wall during the deployment phase and that'd be it. A small force of professional soldiers could hold off a barbarian horde behind their wall (or flank them around it) and we could be one step closer to accurately representing some important historical events.
Obviously this would have to be balanced out- battlefield walls were not indestructible, and the fact that this 'unit' could be attacked by other units is a bonus- curently armies cannot attack city walls (I mean pallisades) without rams or saps, when in reality a wooden fence could conceivably be pulled down by large sweaty men with axes.

So what I'm suggesting is that the pioneer units themselves are the wall, and that their battle map animation represent the work that they have done before the battle started.

Off the top of my head it seems that this might be a unit unique to post-Marian Rome, although the Macedonian/Hellenic factions should probably have a shot at it as well. Definitely should not be available until pretty far up the developement tree.

So, what do y'all think. Am I mad?

[Ano2]

So hold on how far does this wall go? Also how would you create this model? And wouldnt it all collapse when it dies? Could the A.I. use it?

[Ludens]

Well, it is an original solution to say the least. But there are some problems. First: will the A.I. use or respond to them properly? The answer to that is no. Two: is it possible to create an inpenatrable, immovable object on the battlefield with a unit? The answer may be yes, but I am not sure. The formation has to be very dense and the mass has to be extremily high. Three: if part of the wall is destroyed, the engineers will die. (Maybe you can do something here with hitpoints. IIRC high-hitpoint units stand a better chance of healing.) Four: Can you prevent the wall from attacking nearby enemies? I don't think so, and enemies near the wall will "stick" to the wall because they are under attack. Five: exactly what is its tactical use? You can blockade part of the battlemap, but this is not the same as a fortification. The enemy can just walk round it.

[Baldrick]

and movement point refer to the campaign map and not the battle map so if you built something with no movement points you could never get it to the battle in the first place (I think).

[SwordsMaster]

Well, you could represent tough, but destructable walls, by giving them a high armour value, making them vulnerable to siege artillery, and giving them a couple of dozen hitpoints. And setting their speed to 0. Technically.

Of course, the AI won't like it one bit, but unless someone actually tries it out, we can't ever be sure. I think the Pike&Musket mod includes something similar in the for of "war vagons". So there is a precendent.

[Ano2]

Woudln't another alternative be to create maps with pre-mad siege works? No idea if that works either.

[SwordsMaster]

Actually, I've been thinking about it, and wouldn't it be possible to build field fortifications in the same fashion as watchtowers and forts? They would stay there while there is an army nearby (1/2 of movement points or something random like that) and would disappear if that is not the case, they would appear on the batlefield like an incomplete fort-kinda-thing with only the palisades or whatever other graphic is suitable and would be destroyable by siege weapons and h2h infantry but not cavalry. Of course they should be cheaper to build than forts and watchtowers as they need no maintenance.

I'm just brainstorming, tell me if I'm pushing it...


PS, Nice to see a fellow dubliner oudysseos.

[Ludens]

Actually, I've been thinking about it, and wouldn't it be possible to build field fortifications in the same fashion as watchtowers and forts? They would stay there while there is an army nearby (1/2 of movement points or something random like that) and would disappear if that is not the case, they would appear on the batlefield like an incomplete fort-kinda-thing with only the palisades or whatever other graphic is suitable and would be destroyable by siege weapons and h2h infantry but not cavalry. Of course they should be cheaper to build than forts and watchtowers as they need no maintenance.

I'm just brainstorming, tell me if I'm pushing it...

I don't it's possible to add a button to the interface. In other words: there is no way to order your army to build these things. You either have to replace the fort or the watchtower.

IIRC the Warwagons of P&M are just a cavalry unit.

Woudln't another alternative be to create maps with pre-mad siege works? No idea if that works either.

That could actually work, but how do you plan to insert these on the strategic map?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I've stated elsewhere that one simple way to add defensive fortifications for the besiegers would be to reshape the tunnel entrances for undermining the walls. If it's possible to make them longer and a little taller, they could be used as defensive walls. But I'm sure no one has tested it out to see if this could work. Still, this is nothing like a circumvallation, but it could help.

[oudysseos]

Teleklos-
that sounds promising, but as far as I am aware the player has no control over the placement of the tunnel entrances. But how about siege towers? Could they be modified to represent sections of a wall? If they can't be made immobile perhaps they could be made very very slow- then a player wishing to use a battlefield fortification could have a unit of pioneers whose animation is a few little guys pushing (very slowly) some wider, shorter siege towers.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hmm. If someone did want it to be made from siege towers, you could always just not pick them up. There might even be a better way of handling it. I'd really love to see someone who could model try it though. I've got zero abilities or means here.

[Ludens]

But how about siege towers? Could they be modified to represent sections of a wall? If they can't be made immobile perhaps they could be made very very slow- then a player wishing to use a battlefield fortification could have a unit of pioneers whose animation is a few little guys pushing (very slowly) some wider, shorter siege towers.

The problem with modding a non-MP game is that you always have to question how the A.I. will react to it. In this case, the A.I. will probably try to push its siege-walls to the city-wall, wasting time and units. Also, if you make them slow to move they will be no use to the player either: before they are in place the sallying A.I. army will already be on him.

The siege entrances solution souns intriguing.

[Lord Winter]

if you have it only in the MP edu thou it could be done

[oudysseos]

I don't suppose there is any way at all to restrict a unit to the human player?

[Lord Winter]

I

don't suppose there is any way at all to restrict a unit to the human player?

maybe ascript that places a placeholder building for recuirtment purposes might work, but do we really want to give the ai another disadvantage?

[Shigawire]

Roman capabilities in siege engineering and siege warfare were actually quite abysmal at the beginning of the 1st Punic War, when compared to the greeks, and the middle eastern people from whom the art of siege warfare came (Assyrians).

It changed later, with influences from their archenemies Kart-hadast, and the Romans were very impresed by the Makedon siege train (logistics). The first mention of Romans building and using a rolling siege tower was only in 210 BC. Until then, most Roman assaults happened using escalade (ladders) or building ramps of dirt up to the wall under rolling shelters "vinea."

[Ano2]

Ludens- i personnaly have no way to do it, or idea if it will work but i just suggest it fo other modders :)

[RandyKapp]

If the army that this thing is in gets caught in an ambush what happens then? Kinda kills some of the point of an ambush.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Would it be possible for someone to make a very very simple model (a wall basically), with very very simple skin to test it? To see if it would work and if AI would not kill themselves with it? Rarely when I'm sallying forth do the AI advance upon me. Usually they either sit back and wait or retire to a more easily defended spot of grass further back.

[paullus]

I think they attack when they have a good numerical advantage. Not certain about that, though.

[oudysseos]

Well I'm gonna give myself a little skinning tutorial and see what I can come up with. It'll take a while. I'm not just talking about city sieges, btw, but using pallisades in any battle. And what I envision is not one siege tower, but 160 (whatever) units each of which represent a section of wall that you position during the deployment phase. Unfortunately only in a straight line.

[Ludens]

Well I'm gonna give myself a little skinning tutorial and see what I can come up with. It'll take a while. I'm not just talking about city sieges, btw, but using pallisades in any battle. And what I envision is not one siege tower, but 160 (whatever) units each of which represent a section of wall that you position during the deployment phase. Unfortunately only in a straight line.

Let us know how it worked .

[Scott]

What about using the saps instead of sige towers?They seem like somthing that A.I. might respond to and they don't move at all.