Realistic Playing...

[Tigranes]

Do you play Total War realistically? For instance, when the Mongols invade and you hold territory in the east. Do you unrealistically garrison high numbers of troops in those provinces? Or do you wait until they actually get there to try to save your territory, understanding that in real life, you wouldn't have known?

I suppose this could be taken to the extreme, with you only leading armies personally when your king was leading them, but that would be boring.

So what do you think? Realism and role-playing? Or slight powergaming?

[antisocialmunky]

Total War? Realism? Bah!

[Tigranes]

Total War? Realism? Bah!

I understand that Total War is not realistic (for instance, the fact that you could levy an infinite number of military units from one province with no population consequences; simply because population does not exist). But what I mean is the player, you, actively attempting to play as realistically as possible while still maintaining your level of entertainment at a reasonable level.

[Loucipher]

I tend not to overdo the provinces which will be attacked by Mongols - even if it's my territory.
Other than believing that no ruler would have known that they were coming at that date, I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of actually having them on board and dealing with them as a self-sufficient faction. With enough troops, you can just block the Horde as it arrives - kill as many as you like and put others to the sword. But where's a challenge in that?

[Asmodai]

Yep, i agree with that bro.

Horde is very interesting opponent, and their units are very good. So, it is challenge not a threat.

I crushed them couple of times (mainly in Khazar), but recently, i pull back my armies, and defend only most provitable steppe provinces and rarely take the famous Khazar, where horde usualy arrives. Much fun in future, playing my favourite cavalry battles in very flat steppes!

But history to AI is pure abstraction. Even when playing on GA goals, AI dont bother with them, and usualy heading to total domination. Some major changes in AI behaviour are definitely needed.

[Martok]

It depends. I actually feel that keeping at least moderate garrisons in my eastern provinces is fairly realistic regardless of whether the Mongols' arrival is imminent or not.

I say this because the Golden Horde were the not the only steppe peoples to attack out of the East. Ask the Byzantines, the people of Novgorod, the Kievans....they all dealt with barbarian tribes raiding and attacking throughout a lot of their history. Therefore it's not unreasonable that they would've maintained a certain military presence in order to discourage and/or drive off said invaders--long before the Mongols ever showed up on the scene. So in my opinion, I have a perfectly valid reason for stationing troops in my eastern lands.

That said, I try very hard to not go overboard. I don't make a habit of always deploying 20,000 men in and around Khazar, or anything like that. It's true that I often have a good-sized army just over in Georgia, but that's just because it's a "chokepoint" province (and would therefore have a powerful army stationed there anyway). As for any steppe provinces under my control, I station modest garrisons of 300-500 men, depending on my needs and capabilities.

[Weebeast]

I thought the more troops you put in there the more Mongols will come?

No, I don't build up for the Mongols. Well, I never get to invade Khazar before they arrive. The only eastern factions I've played are Poland, Lithuania and Teutonic Order. I don't necessarily need Khazar and its neighbors. I usually raze Lesser-Khazar once I beat Cuman but keep Levidia (I need some beaches). When I'm playing Egypt, Turk or Byzantine, I stop at Georgia. I don't know why, I just don't feel like climbing those mountains in the north.

I usually have cold-wars with some kingdoms so there's always a major build-up in my kingdom. I like to stay cool in the beginning - getting to know those princesses of neighboring countries. However, my 'build-up' elsewhere usually goes to the east when they arrive. I'm just doing my part of being a europe citizen. They seem to have trouble honoring peace. It's quite fun actually to let them 'grow' in the beginning. It makes me feel more invaded more.

[King Kurt]

I tend to look to defending the Horde at kiev as it is the best defensive position. I do build up a force and infrastructure there - but that is recognition of its important position as a barrier to anybody coming from the east - and to a lesser extent the west! in my current campaign as Byzantium I have held Kiev from quite early in the campaign and have been building it up accordingly - but it does have threats all around. Khazar is interesting - I have held it for some time and use it as a cavalry raising province - principaly Steepe heavies. I usually raise about 6 to 8 units then move them off to where they are needed, so there is likely to be some there when the Horde arrives - about 50 years time. I see the local troops fighting a holding battle while the reserves rush to kiev for the critical defensive battle. Any power with large holdings in that area will always tend to have a few large armies about due to the volatile nature of the area.

[mfberg]

I build up the Anticipated Horde Arrival Areas with armor and weapons production so the horde gets high valor, high armor units to hit me. I also will put huge armies into Khazar to get the Horde size up to even a couple of dozen stacks. If I am playing just for the Horde arrival that is. Otherwise, if I'm playing a more realistic game I let the horde come in as is and only worry about them if I meet them on the field.

mfberg

[acesman]

Even if playing realistically, the arrival of the Horde is not a total surprise. With the destruction of the Khwarazmians and their raids into India and other places before the Golden Horde arrived should have made many in the east wary. Not enough to mass huge armies, but neither should they have been asleep. There is precedent for the Khan to send emissaries to kingdoms in advance offering alliance/surrender. So I am aware of the Golden Horde, but I do not put a larger garrison there then I would any border territory.

[Roark]

I pump up my garrisons in Volga-B, Khazar and the East purely so that the Horde arrives withg a decent army.

[NodachiSam]

I usually leave the east alone if I start on the west until they arrive. If I own that area then I build up tons of extra soldiers in preparation but I don't put them near the border to keep the mongol numbers down.

Xl has a nice map in that it divides Kazaar in two giving you a wee bit more of breathing room.

[Loucipher]

But history to AI is pure abstraction. Even when playing on GA goals, AI dont bother with them, and usualy heading to total domination. Some major changes in AI behaviour are definitely needed.

Now this is an issue to discuss as far as realism is concerned. I assume any and all players would at least try to fulfill their GA goals. AI, though, always goes for Total Domination mode, which is just plain misunderstanding.
Perhaps "Conquest" should be removed from the GA list? What do the others think about it?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Perhaps "Conquest" should be removed from the GA list? What do the others think about it?

It might be a good idea. I see the AI over-extend itself too often in GA mode in a land-grab. Mind you, I'm not sure how one would program 'just enough'

[Boris of Bohemia]

The horde was fun for a while, but eventually you'll do anything to avoid the endless horse archer battles (the heavies are useless). It can ruin MTW. I've gone so far as stocking the provinces with assassins (I'm the #3 vote).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Well, I figure if the Holy Roman Empire has utterly decimated the combined armies of Poland, Turkey, Novgorod, and assorted rebels, and annexed them, I feel that a large garrison in the east wouldn't be tipping realism much farther...

[Loucipher]

Well, I figure if the Holy Roman Empire has utterly decimated the combined armies of Poland, Turkey, Novgorod, and assorted rebels, and annexed them, I feel that a large garrison in the east wouldn't be tipping realism much farther...

Well, the question here is just how large a garrison you think of.
Perfectly viable (from my PoV, of course) to have, say, 400-500 men garrisoned in a critical provice, or even a full stack (960 men) in a chokepoint province. Having three full stacks in nearly all provinces bordering Khazar and Georgia is something entirely else. In my first campaign I was able to counter the Mongol threat only because my armies were accidentally in this region, forming a mass force in Khazar to attack Georgia (then Byzantine-controlled). Come to think of it, the Mongols just have had a massively bad luck back then