Anyone else a little worried by the interviews?!

[Powermonger]

Where is that screen shot from?

From a Spanish site I think.

[Furious Mental]

Thanks alot

[Pontifex Rex]

I think Puzz3D will be disappointed in many of his questions about the 'skill' of the AI. IMO, graphics would seem to be a far more easily solved problem and add to the visual quality of the game, but getting a computer to be able to think and react with anything like near-human abilities is still beyond the tech level we have today. When you really think about it, how many factors pop into your mind when deciding whether to send two cavaltry or three on the left? To pin the entire enemy line or just the center and left? To chase off skirmishers before they can attack or simply stand there and take their shots? Within a fraction of a second we formualte a plan, react to the opposition moves, change our mind, change it back again,...and on and on. Simply put, we are not limited by mathematical algorithims.

It all seems blatantly simple to us, but I would bet the developers are more hamstrung by limitations of technology than we would like to think. There are also the time and cost considerations to be dealt with and just how much of each can be put into any *problem*.

Just an opinion. Cheers.

[ivoignob]

Wow, new screenshots! even though I think, the castle entrance is a little bit exaggerated :-)

[Quietus]

I saw these screens in the .COM.

Just by the looks of it, the battle maps seem to be bigger.

The only other thing is sallying. If one sallies, then the armies would be fighting in that narrow pathway

[Dutch_guy]

I saw these screens in the .COM.

Just by the looks of it, the battle maps seem to be bigger.

The only other thing is sallying. If one sallies, then the armies would be fighting in that narrow pathway

It certainly looks better...but I'd really like to know if this is a IN game screenshot rather than a nice constructed screenie just to give the community fals hopes.

Well I do like the sounds of having to sally on such as map, would certainly - given the AI knows how to handle such a map - be an epic battle.

[Quietus]

It certainly looks better...but I'd really like to know if this is a IN game screenshot rather than a nice constructed screenie just to give the community fals hopes.

Well I do like the sounds of having to sally on such as map, would certainly - given the AI knows how to handle such a map - be an epic battle.

Well, Wikiman is back. Maybe the fella has something to say about all the queries....

[Ignoramus]

I hope they portray Antioch properly.

[Ludens]

I am not very worried by the lack of details regarding the playability and A.I. of the game. You tend not get this kind of information in the first previews; most likely because the designers themselves don't know this yet either. However, I would be really grateful to CA if they allowed the same kind of Q&A as we had leading up to the release of BI. It might restore some of the communities faith in the company. I think the relative silence since the release of R:TW has made the community feel ignored, though it was not suprising CA was unwilling to visit the fansites given the amount of hostility at that time.

[Voigtkampf]

I am not very worried by the lack of details regarding the playability and A.I. of the game. You tend not get this kind of information in the first previews; most likely because the designers themselves don't know this yet either. However, I would be really grateful to CA if they allowed the same kind of Q&A as we had leading up to the release of BI. It might restore some of the communities faith in the company. I think the relative silence since the release of R:TW has made the community feel ignored, though it was not suprising CA was unwilling to visit the fansites given the amount of hostility at that time.

Well spoken.

[screwtype]

Wow, new screenshots! even though I think, the castle entrance is a little bit exaggerated :-)

Yeah, the castle entrance looks like a mock up to me.

Two things that strike me about all the screenshots so far.

First, there seem to be an awful lot of full face helmets. Too many I think. IMO, the units should contain a mix of soldiers both with and without full face helmets.

Secondly, there seems to be a lot of armour. I'm hardly a great medieval history buff, but I've always had the impression that knights in full armour were very much an elite. Most soldiers were men-at-arms with some plate armour but a lot of leather as well.

Most of the troops I've seen in the screenshots seem to be kitted up like full knights. Somehow this just isn't how I envisage Medieval combat.

[Zenicetus]

I wondered about all that armor too. Maybe they're using all elite units in the screenshots to make it look impressive and colorful, but the actual game might have more mixed armor types when you (and the AI) can't afford full stacks of elite knights. I hope that's the case. I'm not an expert on this period, but I also had the impression that full-kit knights didn't turn out in the numbers we see onscreen, and there should be other more pedestrian units on the field.

[Ludens]

Secondly, there seems to be a lot of armour. I'm hardly a great medieval history buff, but I've always had the impression that knights in full armour were very much an elite. Most soldiers were men-at-arms with some plate armour but a lot of leather as well.

Most of the troops I've seen in the screenshots seem to be kitted up like full knights. Somehow this just isn't how I envisage Medieval combat.

We complained ad nauseam about peasants hordes, so they give us knights and what do we do? Right...

These are just screenshots: off course they show the flashy bits. We'll have to wait until the full game before we know how the actual armies will be composed. Even then, I doubt it will be an accurate representation of medieval warfare. Small armies followed by large peasant mobs make for poor gameplay.

[screwtype]

We complained ad nauseam about peasants hordes, so they give us knights and what do we do? Right...

These are just screenshots: off course they show the flashy bits. We'll have to wait until the full game before we know how the actual armies will be composed. Even then, I doubt it will be an accurate representation of medieval warfare. Small armies followed by large peasant mobs make for poor gameplay.

I agree. All I'm really trying to say is I'd be happy with a similar mix of units that were available in MTW. In that game, your fully kitted out Gothic Knights and so on were very hard to get and expensive. Mostly you just had archers, spearmen, pikemen and men-at-arms of variable quality. And that, IMO, is how it should be.

[GFX707]

I wouldn't get your hopes up based on screenshots. Go look at the RTW pre-release screenshots and tell me if half that stuff will ever occur in a normal game....

[Orda Khan]

I agree. All I'm really trying to say is I'd be happy with a similar mix of units that were available in MTW. In that game, your fully kitted out Gothic Knights and so on were very hard to get and expensive. Mostly you just had archers, spearmen, pikemen and men-at-arms of variable quality. And that, IMO, is how it should be.

Correct. The first thing I thought when I saw the screenshots of MTW II....far too many great helms. Same thing with all the armour, there is just too much for the battlefield to look realistic

.....Orda

[Martok]

Wow, new screenshots! even though I think, the castle entrance is a little bit exaggerated :-)

Yeah, if that's an actual castle somewhere on the campaign map, I think I may just try bribing the garrison first, as that would probably cost a heck of a lot less than assaulting it!

[Lord Adherbal]

It all seems blatantly simple to us, but I would bet the developers are more hamstrung by limitations of technology than we would like to think. There are also the time and cost considerations to be dealt with and just how much of each can be put into any *problem*.

we're not asking for a near-human AI, just an AI that doesn't make completly obvious stupid mistakes. For example in RTW the AI doesn't even use their missile units properly. Give them 19 archers and 1 cavalry unit and they will still charge in that cavalry unit as soon as they can, instead of waiting until the archers have depleted their ammo.
Writing AI is hardly limited by technonogy, it's just a matter of investing enough time figuring out the AI algoritms and putting them in the game. AoE3 had a single developer solely working on water effects. I garantee you TW's AI could be more then acceptable if CA would let a single programmer work on AI and nothing else.

[Pontifex Rex]

we're not asking for a near-human AI, just an AI that doesn't make completly obvious stupid mistakes. For example in RTW the AI doesn't even use their missile units properly.

Don't get me wrong, the AI does need improving and from what I have read it will be improved. My concern is that some may be actually expecting that "miracle" and it will set of another round of pages and pages of complaints. I am of the opinion that we are still years away from anything even remotely called *True AI*,...because of those very same alogorithims you mention.

I've been playing these games since the days of Apple IIe and the first PCs,...the growth in game AI in 20+ years is both remarkable and strangely disappointing at the same time.

Cheers.

[Satyr]

I don't think anyone is expecting a miracle AI from CA. In that many of us were reasonable happy with the AI in MTW and even STW (more so with the good mods like Medmod 3) I would expect that we have a good sense of what's reasonable. It is only the dissappointment of that other game (censored) that leads us to question what will be delivered.

Just look at Civ4 for an example of a game that is delivering an AI that has the community happy. Many people can't win on the 'even' level and most play only one or two levels up from that where the AI is only slightly cheating. The fact that there are three or four more challenging levels to go helps to keep the experts happy and probably provides the illusion that the players who aren't playing at those levels aren't very good (in their own minds). And I would venture to say that Civ4 has as nice a graphics as that other game (censored) did without sacrificing game play to achieve those looks.

[econ21]

I think Civ4 (or indeed earlier Civs) is a very good standard for a challenging AI that M2TW should aspire too. However, I am not convinced that the AI is that much better than in TW games and suspect it may just have more cheats.

Certainly, Civ4 AI is no great shakes at war fighting - which is what we are demanding from the TW AI. I can squash waves of AI troops with virtually no losses because it does not fight smart. And this is with a much simpler "battle map" (moves are confined to a few squares, so presumably there are fewer options to evaluate). It's been a while, so I can't remember all the gory details but I do recall the AI lamentably fails to bring enough siege equipment to bring down cities (although the BI AI also has the same failing). On the few occasions I have invaded AI Civs, it has been like slicing a sausage - the AI has no concept of concentration of force and just happily sits with 3-4 stacks in each city, while I dismember it's empire of 12+ cities with a stack of about 8 units. I would say STW or MTW provide a greater threat for any given ratio of AI to player resources. I just booted up STW as Useugi - try defending Shinano in turn 7 against 2 invading armies; when you are outnumbered 3:1 on the battlefield, however smart you are, you're probably going down.

I suspect Civ is so challenging partly because it cheats so much. It pumps up its cities and its armies so you have to work like crazy to keep a lead. Even on noble (supposedly "fair"), I think it gets great discounts for upgrading its units, so you it's less likely you will see AI "peasants" fighting your knights. I have not looked under the hood, but the reason the AI is so strong at Monarch and above is not because it is any smarter at those levels, just because it gets some massive advantages.

However, I will say that I love the Civ diplomatic AI - the way AI factions have distinct personalities and the way many launch opportunistic wars, get weary, back off and later come gunning for a round two. I am a builder in civ - war fighting is too tedious in that engine - but it is thrilling to try to hold off aggressive Civs while I prioritise bread over guns. TW AI diplomacy is rather brain dead by contrast - they often start pointless wars, refuse sensible offers of peace, make ludicrous demands and do not simulate any recognisably human personality at all.