Are we Alive?

[Don Corleone]

Funny question. I know. But you know, I have always had a stringent disavowal of the paranormal, other than the 'allowable' paranormal from my Roman Catholic upbringing.

Then, tonight, I watched a movie that got me thinking. If you're dead, wouldn't you know? Well, maybe no. There's a character like me in the movie... all sense and facts, except for religion, and there's no in-between. And what about dying in your sleep? How do "YOU" conciously know that you've died? I'm curious about this from all angles, all opinions welcome.

Do you think death is a moment of epiphany, for better or for worse? That an angel and a demon show up and throw dice over your and one takes you away? Or do you think it's more sublime than that... do you have to 'resolve' things before you go? Or is there anything? Is it a lightswitch being turned off? Maybe we live on, we think everything is as normal, yet everything changes around us, unknown to us. Again, back to the original question... Descartes proof of existence, "I think, therefore I am" doesn't exactly help you define what temporal state you believe you're in (or the one you actually are for that matter)...

Anybody else ever look around and ask "How do I know my mind's not more powerful than I give it credit for?"

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I am utterly certain that my mind is no more powerful than I credit it to be. Less than hoped for is actually a distinct possibility.

Don C, I think the answer to you question will only come upon discovery. Not sidestepping, just don't have a better answer.

[Divinus Arma]

I think I have an easy answer to this question.

Ever been black out drunk?

Remember how you have recollection of anything that took place, so it was like it never even happened?

That part of your brain was pretty much turned off for the night. Imagine when you don't even have that part of your brain.

That's death. No heaven. No hell. Just nothing at all. And that is the mercy of God.

[Don Corleone]

Aaah, but when you're black out drunk, things continue to happen around you. When you wake up, frequently you learn, like it or not, you were involved in the 'goings-on', though those moments will never be recalled. How do you know you just didn't 'switch modes' so to speak?

[Cowhead418]

I believe that after you die there is nothing. There is no God, no heaven, and no hell. You feel just like you felt a thousand years before you were born, which is absolutely nothing. You did not exist then and after you die you will cease to exist. I've tried to imagine what this is like but it is mentally impossible for me to think in this way. It is quite an unnerving thought.

[KukriKhan]

Kukri thinks (ha! then it must be wrong)

I am. Possibly, you are. I can't prove either posit. But I think, and feel that I am, and fervently hope that you are... because it (doesn't prove, but) provides comfort that maybe I am.

When I stop breathing, which seems to be what happens eventually to most other "I am's", then I am will not be. I don't know what happens after that. Smarter guys than I have proposed several scenarios, but they all seem to include losing the current "I am" to some bigger I am.

Seems kinda sad, 'cause I've gotten accustomed to being I am, and I usually (but not always) like I am.

So I can only conclude from all that, that what happens, and what I do, between sleep periods, matters somehow. And I probably shouldn't waste that time. Be well, do good, keep in touch. :)

[Samurai Waki]

Its not unnerving if you realize that before you were born the only thing you knew was nothing at all, and you were at peace because there was nothing to be discontented about.

[GoreBag]

I was always a fan of the notion that the world would cease to exist once I ceased to live.

[Big_John]

imo, the answer is that you can not know what the true nature of your perceptions are. descartes resolution to his meditation is a fallacy, imo. the 'great deciever' concept is a possiblity, and as such, one can not know what the relationship between perception and any objective reality is.

a type of epistemic faith is required; a person must at some level just believe that he is alive/awake/etc.

in order to get beyond this, i think we'd need some sort of metaphysical machinery (conceptual or otherwise). naturally, that's are hard to come by, and i haven't yet encountered a satisfying metaphysical solution. however, i haven't looked that hard.. it's not something i worry about much.



if you allow a soul to exist (i.e., a metaphysical seat of personal identity), there may be a simple solution, because death need not be an end to, nor necessarily a break in the stream of conscious experience.

[Papewaio]

Its not unnerving if you realize that before you were born the only thing you knew was nothing at all, and you were at peace because there was nothing to be discontented about.

We are not born a blank slate.

Believe me we are born kicking and screaming and in no time we know that it is a cold world and we have to wait a time before we can feed and that we have to rely on others to function.

Before being born the unborn child can hear things, can perceive things, it will kick and squirm and react... if the mother has a fright (watches a horror film) the unborn child will react... if the mother is content, the more likely the child will do so. However it is a hungry little thing and it will change the eating habits of most pregant women to meet its needs.

[KukriKhan]

We are not born a blank slate.

Believe me we are born kicking and screaming and in no time we know that it is a cold world and we have to wait a time before we can feed and that we have to rely on others to function.

Before being born the unborn child can hear things, can perceive things, it will kick and squirm and react... if the mother has a fright (watches a horror film) the unborn child will react... if the mother is content, the more likely the child will do so. However it is a hungry little thing and it will change the eating habits of most pregant women to meet its needs.

So says the new Pappy, bless ya. :)

However it is a hungry little thing...

Indeed. Breathing, seeing, eating, hearing, touching... all that stuff = we are hungry little things, eagerly insatiable for knowledge and things to sustain us.

[Byzantine Prince]

Screw it. No one listens

[Zalmoxis]

No, since your brain stops working when you die, it's natural to assume your eyes stop working. You won't see death, you won't feel it. You die and become a faceless member in a greater number of statistics.

[JimBob]

Was this movie Waking Life?

You don't know, so who cares? Act like it's real and you'll find out eventually(or not?).

[Quietus]

Funny question. I know. But you know, I have always had a stringent disavowal of the paranormal, other than the 'allowable' paranormal from my Roman Catholic upbringing.

Then, tonight, I watched a movie that got me thinking. If you're dead, wouldn't you know? Well, maybe no. There's a character like me in the movie... all sense and facts, except for religion, and there's no in-between. And what about dying in your sleep? How do "YOU" conciously know that you've died? I'm curious about this from all angles, all opinions welcome.

If you ask me, the same before you were "Alive". Does anyone know anything before they were "alive"? No. Hence, it will be the same as before.

Do you think death is a moment of epiphany, for better or for worse? That an angel and a demon show up and throw dice over your and one takes you away? Or do you think it's more sublime than that... do you have to 'resolve' things before you go? Or is there anything? Is it a lightswitch being turned off? Maybe we live on, we think everything is as normal, yet everything changes around us, unknown to us. Again, back to the original question... Descartes proof of existence, "I think, therefore I am" doesn't exactly help you define what temporal state you believe you're in (or the one you actually are for that matter)...

Death is my biggest fear, hence my screenname, Quietus (death). I'm glad I'm not alone being scared.

I've always wanted to put: Death is Forever under my screenname but I don't want to creep out other people and get them thinking about mortality as well.

Anybody else ever look around and ask "How do I know my mind's not more powerful than I give it credit for?"

Because the brain is physical and it is dependent on physical rules, hence it is fairly limited.

[Samurai Waki]

We are not born a blank slate.

Do you remember anything when you were in the womb? or before, when you were just a concept? 'Cause if I'm the only that doesn't remember, I'm in serious trouble

[rory_20_uk]

To fully grasp the intangable nature of death one can either spend an eternity, or just wait until it happens to them.

DO we have a soul? Has our consiousness evolved to the point where it can exitst without a body? Who knows?

They do say that death is a door, and on one side is a horrible painful place. I guess that depends on which way you're looking.

As far as we can be aware, asking any person their view on what happens after death is basicaly asking for an editorial based on little evidence, as everyone is guessing or assuming.

"I think I'm thinking, therefore I might possibly be"

[Kagemusha]

I guess we will all find out,the day we die.

[Ja'chyra]

Another good question Don and one that is definately worth a ponder, as long as it doesn't become an obsession.

I have often thought about it and while I would like to think that my family and friends will be there when I cross the river the only thing that I have decided, in my profoundly limited wisdom, is that I just don't know

I do not think it is something to fear, but, like childhood, neither is it something to rush.

When I do, finally (hopefully), die I'll meet you for a vodka and we can see if we can figure a way to let the others we left behind know there's nothing to fear.

[Don Corleone]

If you ask me, the same before you were "Alive". Does anyone know anything before they were "alive"? No. Hence, it will be the same as before.

Aaah, but we take it for granted that things that happen while we are asleep actually happen, even those for which we have no empirical evidence. There are all sorts of states of suspended conciousness in which we do not assume ourselves to temporarily cease to exist. IMHO, awareness does not equate with existence.

And no, the movie wasn't Waking Life.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It was The Others. I saw the 'what' coming, I just couldn't see the 'how' until the very end. A very, very good movie.

You're on for that vodka, Ja'chyra. I'm not particularly obessed. I've pondered this question seriously at several points in my life and in the end, I've always taken the mentally lazy but satisfying result "Does it really matter if I'm 'truly' alive, or dead and stuck in a created existence, seems real enough and satisfying enough to me". Which, when you think you think about it, creates the same action... living to increase the joy and fulfillment one gets out of their own and others' existence.

[Husar]

No, since your brain stops working when you die, it's natural to assume your eyes stop working. You won't see death, you won't feel it. You die and become a faceless member in a greater number of statistics.

Well, you don´t always need eyes to "see" things, even your memory can store pictures. Also, pictures are composed by your brain from the data it gets from your eyes. Those 16 fps from your eyes are made to a fluent "film" and your brain uses pretty good antialiasing I think. But I still find it hard to belive that "I am" just my brain, though my brain is definitely a nice thing to have.

What about mentally ill people for example? Are they not existant because they don´t know that they "are"? I tend to see them in a way that their soul is fine, just the brain, the phyical entity of a being, is messed up and so they act in strange ways. Maybe they even know that to some degree, because most people also know that they´re drunk when they are.

[A.Saturnus]

I would say we are alive, because if we were dead, our hearts wouldn't pump blood through our brain, depriving it of oxygen. Without oxygen, the brain can't work, which it obviously does since thinking about whether we are alive requires brain activity. We can also assume that the world doesn't cease to exist while we sleep because that's the simplest solution.

[Jubilation T Cornpone]

For all you Sven Hassell freaks out there. Wasn't it Porta who used to murmer 'come, sweet death, come' before each attack? Crazy top hat wearing mixed up kid....

[Reverend Joe]

Why are you even bothering with this question?

Life is a horrible thing. It subjects us to endless downfalls, pain, and sorrow. It is relentless and unforgiving. But none of this cruelty exists, can exist, without an equal measure of good. The downs come between ups; the pain follows and preceded pleasure; sorrow is broken by joy. We all have to experience the pain, have to look at it, accept it, and then fight our way through it, so that the pleasure is all the more wonderful on the other side.

Thinking that you can escape pain and pleasure is escapism. It is utter foolishness, because it negates the very purpose of living: to feel pleasure, and to feel pleasure, you must endure pain. To lose these both is, by definition, death. It is the same as losing humanity. If there be a heaven and hell, I wish to see neither, because to me they will both be an unendurable hell: a place where we are not human, because we either experience no pleasure, or no pain, and I honestly don't know which I would fear more. Budhists, who seek to eliminate pain and pleasure, are similarly depriving themselves of humanity; they are, ironically, causing themselves the greatest pain and torture possible: that of losing humanity, of losing life.

Focusing on death is meaningless, because no matter what come after, if anything, it is almost a sure bet that you lose your humanity in the process. So enjoy being human, and enjoy it how you wish, and not how some jabbering fool tells you to: use your head, and be a human being, because it won't last long.

For once, I hope someone takes me seriously here, because I have just opened up a huge part of my own spiritual beliefs to you people.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Maybe there is no such thing as earth. Maybe we're all just in a program called...

...THE MATRIX!

[Taohn]

Why are you even bothering with this question?

Budhists, who seek to eliminate pain and pleasure, are similarly depriving themselves of humanity; they are, ironically, causing themselves the greatest pain and torture possible: that of losing humanity, of losing life.

I'm not a Buddhist, but I've done a lot of reading on the subject and I'm also taking a course in it at university. Based on my understanding, Buddhists don't seek to eliminate either pain or pleasure, but rather engage in a process of investigation into all aspects of the human psyche (through various practices, be they intellectual reflections, meditations, chants, tantric or other rituals, etc.). Worldly experience and feeling are not condemned in favour of a stone cold, lifeless aloofness, but neither does the Buddhist abandon himself or herself to every emotional breeze that comes along (though both these extreme states are themselves a part of the entire range of human experience). The ideal, as it were, and as I understand it, is a sort of gentle, tolerant equanimity, one grounded in a real, down to earth appreciation of the experience life in all its manifestations.

As to the problem of death, what really fasciantes me is how our self-reflective consciousness appears to arise from nothing but a certain arrangement pure matter (as opposed to the idea of matter being animated by a soul or somthing like that). So I guess death is more of a change of state than something's actually disappearing. The self-reflection might be gone, but what constituted it has not "died". I think humans for the most part see themselves as outside observers of natural phenomena, but aren't we really that same pure matter thinking about itself?

[Papewaio]

Do you remember anything when you were in the womb? or before, when you were just a concept? 'Cause if I'm the only that doesn't remember, I'm in serious trouble

So to be alive you have to have a 100% memory of all prior events.

Lets forget that most people filter what they remember and that they forget the majority of it within a week.

Few people remember much before they were 4. Are 4 year olds dead because their elder self cannot remember who they were?

Are younger people dead because Alzheimers patients in their 70's cannot remember much (although sometimes all they remember is their youth)?

Or are Alzheimers patients are the walking dead?

[Zalmoxis]

Well, you don´t always need eyes to "see" things, even your memory can store pictures. Also, pictures are composed by your brain from the data it gets from your eyes. Those 16 fps from your eyes are made to a fluent "film" and your brain uses pretty good antialiasing I think. But I still find it hard to belive that "I am" just my brain, though my brain is definitely a nice thing to have.

What about mentally ill people for example? Are they not existant because they don´t know that they "are"? I tend to see them in a way that their soul is fine, just the brain, the phyical entity of a being, is messed up and so they act in strange ways. Maybe they even know that to some degree, because most people also know that they´re drunk when they are.

Haven't thought about the mentally ill, but I can tell you it's a complicated matter that may erupt into a debate on wether the mentally ill are or are not people.

[Quietus]

Aaah, but we take it for granted that things that happen while we are asleep actually happen, even those for which we have no empirical evidence. There are all sorts of states of suspended conciousness in which we do not assume ourselves to temporarily cease to exist.

Hmm, even while asleep, the person still lives, since "living" is linear, meaning there's a beginning and ending.

IMHO, awareness does not equate with existence.

Existence, or you mean "life"? A plant does not have a "brain" but it's still "living".

And no, the movie wasn't Waking Life.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It was The Others. I saw the 'what' coming, I just couldn't see the 'how' until the very end. A very, very good movie.

I see, I don't know Waking Life, but I've seen The Others. In that movie, there's a bridge between Natural and Supernatural. And the Supernatural beings behave like Natural beings

[Samurai Waki]

Pape Touche'...