Congrats and comments

[khelvan]

Check this out:

Currently, the armor values for an early Hastati are 7,9,3.

That means that the large shield that he's carrying (which reaches from his chin to below his knees) is only offering him a measly 3 points of protection. Whereas the little 10" metal square that he wears on the front of his chest provides him with 7 points of protection - not just from the front, mind you - but from the rear, and both flanks too! How do you figure that is realistic?

By contrast, a celtic clyddabre has a defense of 1,9,1. So, even though the celt carries a good sized shield, the hastati has FIVE TIMES better protection against missiles when attacked from the front, (10 vs. 2), and SEVEN TIMES better protection from the rear (7 vs. 1).

How do you figure that is historically accurate?

Sorry, you're looking at this completely wrong. First, shield and armor are handled differently by the system, they can't be equated in terms of pure "points." Second, the hastati do not have "FIVE TIME" better protection. Have you actually done tests with these units? If the hastati had five times better protection, five times more Clyddabre would die during fights.

No discussion about the historical accuracy of numbers will be considered valid. The stats system is put in place to get historical RESULTS, not through the use of "historical numbers."

If the RESULTS on the battlefield are as they should be, that is the important factor. Numbers are only a tool to get there. And if that means we do things completely counter-intuitively so that the battle results come out right, so be it.

[Macroi]

Sorry, you're looking at this completely wrong. First, shield and armor are handled differently by the system, they can't be equated in terms of pure "points." Second, the hastati do not have "FIVE TIME" better protection. Have you actually done tests with these units? If the hastati had five times better protection, five times more Clyddabre would die during fights.

No discussion about the historical accuracy of numbers will be considered valid. The stats system is put in place to get historical RESULTS, not through the use of "historical numbers."

If the RESULTS on the battlefield are as they should be, that is the important factor. Numbers are only a tool to get there. And if that means we do things completely counter-intuitively so that the battle results come out right, so be it.

Ok, I just ran the tests. Here are the results:

I put 50 hayasdan ayrndzi netadzik against 81 hastati. I kept the archers in front of the hastati the whole time. Only 7 hastati died before I ran out of arrows.

Then I put the same 50 horse archers against 100 clyddabre. 91 clyddabre died before the remaining 9 turned and fled. I didn't even need to use all my arrows.

Look, don't get me wrong here; I'm not whining, and I'm not trying to give you guys a hard time. On the contrary, I appreciate all the work you guys have put into this mod, and that's why I'm taking the time to try and help you make it better. It's a great mod - I'm just trying to point out some ways in which I think it can be improved. No offense intended.

[QwertyMIDX]

As I mentioned before:

The Clyddabre is supposed to be extremely vulnerable at range as per Ranika's direction (and the unit description).

[Macroi]

[QUOTE=khelvan]...the hastati do not have "FIVE TIME" better protection. Have you actually done tests with these units? If the hastati had five times better protection, five times more Clyddabre would die during fights.

Fair enough, QM. But this is the point I'm addressing by running the test.

Khelvan seems to think that I'm "looking at this all wrong" - but I'm not. He doubts that the Clyddabre would suffer five times the casualties that Hastati would suffer - when in fact they do (far more than that actually, since there is no direct corrolation between having 5x protection and suffereing 5x less casualties as Khelvan proposed).

The hastati suffered less than 10% casualties, while the Clyddabre suffered over 90% (it would easily have been 100% had I chosen to pursue them).

That is a striking disparity since the only real difference between these units is that Hastati have a helmet and a 10" metal protector on their chests, don't you think?