Social exclusion

[rory_20_uk]

Again the troubles of the underclass have been highlighted as Tony creates the post of Social Exclusion Minister. Since 1998, there have been many projects to help target this problem, but mainly with little discernable success.

So, any thoughts what should be done with this problem? Houses and private councellors for all to air reintegration, or have some secret flights to central Australia...

[Duke Malcolm]

I never quite understand what is meant by Social Exclusion...
Is this when people are left out? Is it simply a more leftist word for the lower classes? Is it something to do with the insolent youth?

[rory_20_uk]

Linky

[Duke Malcolm]

Ahh, so it is a mix of the latter two...

I quite like the Tory and Brownite idea of the local entrepreneur mentoring the youth. It seems nice and simple, inexpensive, and such.

[JAG]

Redistribution of wealth.

Shall serve all thy ills.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yeah, that's why 'the socially excluded' no longer exist in Britain.

Er, wait a sec...I messed up my notes...oops.

*hastens away*

Crazed Rabbit

[Duke Malcolm]

Redistribution of wealth.

Shall serve all thy ills.

Yes, and a man can live on whisky alone...

I find it hard to see how redistribution of the wealth can, for want of a better word, "cure" social exclusion. Spending tax money on decent measures is one thing, but simply giving over money to the less well-off is hardly a solution. Measures such as the Minimum Wage, and Job Seeker's Allowance I feel work better to do this (perhaps adding a redundancy benefit to those who have been laid off in cost cutting exercises and such by companies for a short while after and have no other major income), and perhaps giving the EMA to the parents instead of the child would also work better. Nothing much more severe than what is already in place

[Fragony]

'Social exclusion' is wewantmoremoney's, a language commonly used by multicultural organisations. You have to be a kremlinwatcher to interpet it correctly really.

[Papewaio]

'Social exclusion' is wewantmoremoney's, a language commonly used by multicultural organisations.

Depends on the culture and how the interact with the new environment. Most first gen migrants are a positive economic effect. Mind you except for refugees it is very hard to get into Australia without being a skilled or rich migrant... this tends to narrow the selection pool to those who are harder working.

However a minority of second and third generation (born in the country) who will latch on to any reason to get a handout will try any line that bears fruit.

[rory_20_uk]

I think that it's nothing a stint in the armed forces wouldn't fix one way or another.

I knew Jag would think that giving people stuff will stop them being surley, badly educated malcontents and will make them behave, get jobs and attend night school to better themselves, but I find most just take the money, spend it and then wait for more. Countries can have as many wasters as they are prepared to have. Unfortunately as these creatures have votes (and the left wing, or at least those rich enough to not meet them) feel that Something Must Be Done (by someone else) and so we get these exercises in wasting money fromt he Public Purse.

Break the Cycle - Eugenics

[Divinus Arma]

Redistribution of wealth.

Shall serve all thy ills.

I agree. China's move towards capitalism has done nothing but breed more poverty.


Kim Jung Il has the right idea. As does Cuba. Soon Hugo Chavez will better his country too. Stalin was the man.

I too wish that I could have all of my personal property stolen by the government and given to a katrina victim who purchased liquor and titty bar daces instead of food and shelter.

Brilliant Jag. Just Brilliant. And I hear you snickering back there. If you want to fish, create a thread.

Back into the caverns vile serpent! Back!

[JAG]

so, why do people think Sweden is a model of social inclusion, fair, just and a socially mobile society? It couldn't possibly be due to it's 20+ year rule by progressive, lefty governments could it? No, never!

The fact remains if you couple redistribution of wealth with other measures you gain a fair, balanced and yes equal society which makes everyone in that society feel a belonging to it and a need, no, reason to not damage, rebel and turn against it. How can you gain a socially inclusive society when you have some people in a constant circle of deprivation and poverty.

Rory, you have far too little faith in people. Give people who do not have a lot of money some money and they will not go out and blow it, they will use it wisely, for they know the value of it. Your view of the poorest and most needy in our country is merely based by Daily Mail column inches, the real, vast, majority of people want to - and try to - strive for a better life for themselves and most importantly their children. When you redistribute wealth - and people forget EMA's, minimum wage as well as the basic benefits are forms of redistribution too - you create a plain unto which these people can start to have a level footing with those who are in professional middle to high paying jobs. Just because someone is not as clever as someone else it does not mean they do not work as damn hard as anyone else and do as needy jobs to society as anyone else, a doctor is no more valuable to a society than a dustbin man.

After this kind of redistribution you are left with people who feel a connection with the society they live in because there is something to strive for other than the deprivation and poverty that is the norm.

Divinus Arma - you are talking rubbish, three of your examples are dictatorships - of which we are not talking here and are so irrelevant, even if they may or may not have practiced redistribution of wealth. And Hugo Chavez is vastly helping his people, look at the lives of the poor in Venezuela and you will see the improvement in education - especially - and healthcare, housing and livelihood. You wouldn't know this because you don't open your eyes to the world around you, after all you are just a conservative, passport-less American.

[Divinus Arma]

I mostly just spew forth crap. Fortunately Divinus Arma condensed it and saved everybody from seeing it twice. Plus I demonstrated my ability to make friends with people around the world:

You wouldn't know this because you don't open your eyes to the world around you, after all you are just a conservative, passport-less American.

Wow. You really have no idea what you're talking about. That's cool I can take the insult. Because you don't know a damn thing about me. But I'll happily share some of my life experience with you, because I'm a friendly guy.

I crawled out of a gutter one day. I worked two unskilled jobs and didn't even have a high school diploma. I've told this story here many times. The story of how I picked aluminum cans out of trash cans for extra food money. The story of how I walked five miles to my first job as a security guard because the busses didn't run at 5am. The story of how I decided that no one controls my life but me, so I had better do something about it. And that by 20 I purchased my first residence. And that by 23 I had sat down and signed paperwork on my second house, now valued at close to half a mil. How I'm now working on my MBA in international business after finishing my BBA in Management Summa Cum Laude...

So, enjoy the tender life your mumsy and dad provide you while you attend college. In the meantime, I'll pay my mortgage, raise my family, and continue to give the finger to the poor who do nothing to help themselves.

edit: I just wanted to throw something else out there: Your Euro-Elitism should make everyone here cringe. Being spit out of a vagina onto the dirt of the British Islands makes you British and nothing more.

2nd edit: Just for the record I have been through Germany, Kuwait, Dubai, and spent a decent amount of time in Kabul. If my family is any influence on my world view, my wife has been to France twice, as well as Germany and Amsterdam. My Inlaws have been just about everywhere, and are in Engalnd as I type actually. They've been to Europe at least a dozen times, as well as Hong Kong, and God knows where else. My Father remarried a Thai, and has spent months there. And to top it off, my smug little Euro student, my mother remarried to one very boring Paternoster computer geek from England. I think it reasonable if say I have just a touch more world view than your average Kentucky American.

Which now leads me to wonder- have you ever been to the U.S.? Oh, I'm sure you have been all over Europe, just as I have spent months in Texas, all over California, Missouri, and several days in other states such as Nevada, New Mexico, and Arizona. Considering the size of the US and the variety of culture here, I would consider that semi equal to your little trots across the chunnel.

[English assassin]

Nice to have you back JAG. But DA pwned you there.

Oh and DA,

Being spit out of a vagina onto the dirt of the British Islands makes you British and nothing more

Damn right, but then,to paraphrase Rhodes, being born British is to have won first prize in the lottery of life. Not that JAG thinks so

Anyway JAG, one of the many problems with your world view is moral hazard. I'm not suggesting we should live in a ruthless anarcho-capitalist society for the fun of it, but it IS true that economically rational people will adjust their behaviours to maximise their benefits, and the introduction of a huge state necessarily seruously distorts the economy and peoples actions.

So (and we have done this debate before) if redistribution of wealth means funding first class education so anyone has a chance to succeed, good child care, good provision for disabled people to get access to work, and a good healthcare system, then yes please.

If it means someone dipping into my wallet to take money I worked hard to earn, because he's got less cash than me, then there is a word for that, and its theft. Just because people vote for it doesn't make it any less theft.

[Idaho]

Damn right, but then,to paraphrase Rhodes, being born British is to have won first prize in the lottery of life. Not that JAG thinks so

My brother was in the US last year and got into a conversation in a bar. The people arond him where both shocked and offended that indeed he didn't want to live in America nor did he think America was better than his own country.

[BDC]

Social exclusion is just brought about by an education system that doesn't force lazy idiots to work hard. More beatings!

[Kralizec]

I just find it amusing that the UK has a ministry of social exclusion, because it implies the opposite of what they're supposed to do

[rory_20_uk]

I don't think I've read the Daily Express for years. I have worked in A&E for 10 months. I've seen the people that come in there, and the poor there are not trying to get better, they take all they can, and then come to A&E again. Some come in after fitting due to withdrawl as they'd spent all their dole before the week ended. They then self discharged when the day for the payout came.

The fact that there is no way of dealing with these people who will take up more and more money as they get older is the problem. I don't know how many of these there are, but at the cost of £300+ per day in hospital they cost a lot of money.

Where does the redistributed money come from? Just tax the rich more? And when they then retaliate by bieng paid overseas, what then? Oh, it does happen - some healthcare locums get paid the minimum wage in the UK, and the rest on the Isle of Man.

What do the poor do ot deserve this bounty? Are there still jobs that are still not filled? Yes. Are there still unemployed? Yes. So why the hell is this?

The Education System does mean that failing merely mean more help from others, and pretty little need for pupil centered action. They then leave school expecting others to continue to do things for them. Sadly, this means that others are required to constantly bail them out.

Yeah, I'll work harder and longer for the hope that they might decide to get the jobs that are there. No pressure of course! Taxes can always be increased...

[Papewaio]

So (and we have done this debate before) if redistribution of wealth means funding first class education so anyone has a chance to succeed, good child care, good provision for disabled people to get access to work, and a good healthcare system, then yes please.

So which one are you going to go to Canada, Australia or Sweden.

A few more hardworkers here in Aus and I think most of those things will come true...

[InsaneApache]

Redistribution of wealth.

Shall serve all thy ills.

OK I'll have a nibble.

In the '70s there was an experiment where they 'divvied' up all the money in the UK and shared it out amongst all the adults. IIRC it came to around £3000 each (well it was the '70s and Labour had just about ruined the economy )

They came to the conclusion that within six months there would be rich and poor again. Some people (as in moi) would invest their loot, start a business or otherwise use the cash fruitfully.

Then again there is the other bunch who spent it on fags, beer, the gee gees etc etc.

If someone could give me a cast iron reason why my hard earned cash should go to lazy gits and spongers I'll listen.

As DA said, I didn't start out owning a business, I had to work damned hard to get the wherewithall to do it. I've taken jobs, real shitty jobs, when I would have been far better off on benefits. I believe that work is essential for a whole host of reasons, that includes self-respect and social standing.

There have been times in my life when I wasn't able to work, like the time my wife was recovering from cancer, but I was never happy sat on my bum watching Neighbours or Richard and Judy (God bless 'em)

Now if they brought back the birch.......

thebirch