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Thread: Realistic casualties

  1. #1

    Default Realistic casualties

    In RTW battles usually end with 70-80% casualties for the loser (and with "Continue Battle" thing - 90-100%... IMO using this option is a cheat, because AI is not able to use it and, erm, is it possible to remove it?) and with 5-15% casualties for the winner. Don't you think that the loser should suffer less casualties? IMO 30-45% in most battles will be just right...

  2. #2

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep
    In RTW battles usually end with 70-80% casualties for the loser (and with "Continue Battle" thing - 90-100%... IMO using this option is a cheat, because AI is not able to use it and, erm, is it possible to remove it?) and with 5-15% casualties for the winner. Don't you think that the loser should suffer less casualties? IMO 30-45% in most battles will be just right...
    Losing armies in ancient battles often suffered extremely high casualty rates due to the fact that once the route was on, the fleeing soldiers were pursued and slaughtered from behind. So, while these huge disparities in casualty rates certainly seem incredible by modern standards, they were actually quite common in the classical world.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Hmm... I think that you may be wrong... You know, in RTW dead bodies don't affect unit movement, but in reality they do...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    And in real life the enemy wouldn't stop pursing you after a 5 min chase once you have left the battlefield...

  5. #5
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Battle of Thapsus:
    Winer:1000 Casualties
    Loser: 30000 Casualties

    Battle of Pharsalus
    Winer: 1200
    Loser: 6000-10000

    Battle of Cannae
    Winer: 15000
    Loser: 60000-70000

    Battle of Lake Trasimene
    WinerL 1500
    Loser: 15000

    Battle of Zama
    Winer: 5500
    Loser: 31000
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  6. #6

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Aleksandros prusued persians for 50-70km after battle at Gaugamella. remember also that many men will desert if it is possible - so losers not only rout and die, they also disperse. low losses are possibe if both armies maintain order, but do not continue to fight - for example battle at Leuktria(sp?) during Sparta vs Thebes war.

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  7. #7
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Leukrta.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  8. #8

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Ok, thanks guys. I thought that this is just another stupid thing from CA... Anyway, I was wrong. I have a question: was the situation the same in Medieval? I would assume that in Medieval the winners (in most cases) preferred taking prisoners (ransom...), but I was wrong once, so...

  9. #9
    Frightens enemy infantry. Member Meothar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    A simple foot soldier is not worth much, in fact it would have been cheaper to kill him and loot what he got with him than give him food and quarter for several weeks. Of course, a knight or nobleman is worth taking him as a prisoner, a ransom could make you rich. Some facts (source is Wikipedia, so dont take them for too proven):

    Battle of Agincourt:
    Winner 400
    Loser 8 000

    Battle of Crecy:
    Winner: up to 1 000
    Loser: up to 20 000
    (both numbers including soldiers injured in a way that they couldn't take part in further battles)

    Battle of Pavia:
    Winner: 500
    Loser: 12 000

    Battle of Bannockburn:
    Winner: 4 000
    Loser 10 000

  10. #10
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Actually, if the prisoners were nobles, taking them risoner was infinitely preferable to killing them, because fortunes could be made via ransom.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep
    I have a question: was the situation the same in Medieval?
    Think of it this way- neither communication nor mobility had improved much since ancient times. There's no reason why it would be much different.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    It’s also worth noting that there’s three things that affect battles in RTW that wouldn’t have done so in real life. One is the omniscient battlefield view – Hannibal and Ceasar would not have commanded their battles from a helicopter, nor could they have given instant commands to any unit. You can spot a fleeing unit and immediately send your nearest cavalry unit after it. Ancient commanders could not have, and in the confusion of a rout there would have been more opportunities for soldiers to slip away.

    The second is somewhat related to the first – armies in RTW are quite small. A battle between two armies of 2,000 men, where both commanders know that no more enemy soldiers are hiding anywhere, would presumably result in quite high casualties for the loser. When you get bigger armies, there’s the fact that some units will probably not see action and will have a head start in a retreat, some units will have already been pulled back from fatigue and communication across a kilometer-long front would have been poor (a ‘general attack’ order would have to have been relayed down the line by trumpets, drums, shouts or messenger riders). Also, an ancient commander could not have known that the soldiers he ordered to chase retreating enemy units would not have blundered into another line or reinforcements coming up - look what happened when Harold's right wing chased down the fleeing Bretons at Hastings.

    Finally, RTW units are very disciplined. They hold together and go where they’re told. Not every general would have had the luxury of commanding soldiers who would have leapt up in a neat formation to systematically chase down fleeing foes even when they were tired and have torn armour and clothing and broken weapons.

  13. #13
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    And routers wouldn't have stayed with their unit either.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Yep. Killing 90% or 100% is unrealistic.
    But if you end battle when you are asked if you want to continue fighting it gets much more realistic (withought RTW cheasing of routers, this is very unrealistic). I usually do this and enemy loses are usualy betwean 50% and 75%.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Ok, I will repeat my first question in this topic...

    Is it possible to remove this "Continue Battle" thing?

  16. #16
    "Audacity, always audacity!" Member Simmons's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    I doubt its possible but how is that really a problem just press end battle everytime if thats what you want to do

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  17. #17
    EB fanboy Member The_White_Knight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba
    Actually, if the prisoners were nobles, taking them prisoner was infinitely preferable to killing them, because fortunes could be made via ransom.
    I even think 'the code of chivalry' prohibited the killing of other knights in the highth of medieval times. So knights could only be killed by 'plebeian' soldiers, and would be 'lucky' when they met a rival knight in battle: they'd only be taken prisoner.

    MTW2'd better have an in-depth simulation of the prisoner system...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    I wonder...

    Would it be possible to implement a battle script in which the "End Battle" button is automatically pressed as soon as the scroll comes up? I haven't dabbled in battle scripts too much, but I think it may be able to work...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Well there is hope. But you would have to find EndBattle button ID first.

    Personaly i dont like this idea.
    While most often i dont continue battle when i am fighting agains factions, on the other hand i usually continue battles when playing against "Rebels" becouse i dont want to be bothered by them again (no point to fight another insignificant boring battle, or chase them all around my domain).

  20. #20
    Sardonic Antipodean Member Trithemius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by The_White_Knight
    I even think 'the code of chivalry' prohibited the killing of other knights in the highth of medieval times. So knights could only be killed by 'plebeian' soldiers, and would be 'lucky' when they met a rival knight in battle: they'd only be taken prisoner.
    I believe this had more to do with the ransom system - knights could capture other knights and ransom them, initially those outside of that class could not so they had no incentive to spare a knight (when they could finish them off and loot their corpse). Conversely, the average footman could command no ransom, so there was no incentive for a knight to spare them. I expect this made things a bit cutthroat.

    You also have to consider that it was quite hard to kill someone in armour outright, especially when armour technology was greater than that of weapons or offensive tactics; casualties from the 13th century are generally extremely light amongst those who fought as knights (e.g. Bouvines, etc).

    Hm, this is probably slipping waaaay off topic for this particular forum though.
    Last edited by Trithemius; 02-26-2006 at 13:04.
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  21. #21
    Speaker of Truth Senior Member Moros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by Trithemius
    Hm, this is probably slipping waaaay off topic for this particular forum though.
    Nothign compared to the bartix thread or that thread that evolved to a beer thread. And I don't know if it's that off-topic. It's an historical mod and a forum on wich a lot of history questions are been asked or history is being discussed. And I think this is history so it's not really off topic for ths forum.

  22. #22
    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Is there a way to make routers regain some energy, so that they run more quickly? This could represent them throwing down some of their weapons or armor, or something like that. Or can energy only replenish over time?

    I think what we need isnt so much a way to not have the chasing of routers, but to make the chase a little more difficult by speeding them up. And routes were slowed up by reserves (especially reserve cavalry), who could threaten the very loose formations involved in pursuit (pursuers often became the pursued). Since RTW doesnt represent the pursuers as just as much a horde as the pursued, that doesn't work as effectively--not to mention the AI's inability to maintain a reserve of any sort.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  23. #23
    Member Member stufer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by LorDBulA
    Well there is hope. But you would have to find EndBattle button ID first.

    Personaly i dont like this idea.
    While most often i dont continue battle when i am fighting agains factions, on the other hand i usually continue battles when playing against "Rebels" becouse i dont want to be bothered by them again (no point to fight another insignificant boring battle, or chase them all around my domain).
    I don't think you need to bother even doing that LorDBulA. In my experience the rebels always dissapear after a victory, even if you leave loads of them alive. As soon as they rout and you get the end battle message, press end battle. They will disperse into the countryside. I've never ever seen rebels retreat after engaging in a battle that they lose.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheexsta
    I wonder...

    Would it be possible to implement a battle script in which the "End Battle" button is automatically pressed as soon as the scroll comes up? I haven't dabbled in battle scripts too much, but I think it may be able to work...
    How about letting every one decide for themselves if they want to continue or not?

    Seriously, if you think it's unrealistic just press end battle.. it's not that hard really.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    The A.I. is poor, so pressing continue battle gives a much greater advantage to the human as the human normally wins, and if they don't the A.I. always ends battle straight away anyway. In MTW the battles would go on until all units had left the field which was much better imo...

  26. #26

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    As people have already said, I don't get the problem here. Just press End Battle when it pops up, and leave the option open for people who want to continue.

    I don't see Continuing the Battle as an advantage to the human player at all. This is mostly because the human player doesn't have the innate ability to instantly field 5 full stacks, so I always completely destroy any army I fight.

  27. #27
    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by stufer
    I don't think you need to bother even doing that LorDBulA. In my experience the rebels always dissapear after a victory, even if you leave loads of them alive. As soon as they rout and you get the end battle message, press end battle. They will disperse into the countryside. I've never ever seen rebels retreat after engaging in a battle that they lose.

    Yeah, I think they always disperse after being beaten.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


    Operam et vitam do Europae Barbarorum.

    History does not repeat itself. The historians repeat one another. - Max Beerbohm

  28. #28

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    I've noticed that your population goes up when you beat rebels. Seems that survivors are added to your closest city as slaves. I always end battle when facing them, unless the nearest city is having unrest problems.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Realistic casualties

    Quote Originally Posted by GMT
    How about letting every one decide for themselves if they want to continue or not?

    Seriously, if you think it's unrealistic just press end battle.. it's not that hard really.
    It was just an idea No need to jump down my throat.

    Besides, it was mostly for those of us who are always tempted to press "Continue" even when we just want to exit

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