Three Options for Iraq - an 'I told you so'

[Idaho]

As I said all those long years ago. There are three options for Iraq:

• Partition
• Civil War
• A Saddam Style dictator

Well we all know that Partition is possibly the worst option in terms of a wider Iran/Turkey/Kurdistan/Jordan war, and the civil war possibility is there for all to see.

However the third option does seem to be materialising too:

Assasination of Iraq Dissidents

[Kagemusha]

I still say partition.It may cause problems in the short run but only real option to bring stability and democracy,is to first give the people their own national states.Since Shiias and Sunnis still mostly come from same ethnics groups i would split Iraq in two parts Kurdistan and Iraq.
We can do a little comparison by thinking what kind of Europe would we be living if the Empires of Europe would not have been splitted to National states.Ofcourse it creates problems first,no births are painless but i think in the long run the Middle east have to go through the same process.

[Dâriûsh]

Somewhere out there, OBL is clapping his hands.

[Kagemusha]

Somewhere out there, OBL is clapping his hands.

Sorry m8.But who is OBL?

[Dâriûsh]

Sorry m8.But who is OBL?

He was some bigshot a few years ago. Few people remember him now.

[Kagemusha]

The name Dariush the Name?

[Dâriûsh]

The name Dariush the Name?

Osama Bin Laden.

[Divinus Arma]

oooooh. A direct reply to me by Jag. Wow! That you would even stoop to address one as slowly as myself. I must now grovel at your feet oh Prince of Socialist Darkness...

Divinus Arma, you are fairly laughable, freedom? You call what is going on in Iraq freedom?!

No Jag, I call it fourth generation warfare. I call it a campaign in a global war. I call it a battlefield against theocratic totalitarianism.

I also dare to call it a place where hope lives amongst the tired and fearful families who desire only for a better life. I call it a place where freedom from fear may one day reign instead of those that would enslave their own race under the banner of religion.

It is as free as it was under Saddam, in fact the lives of people are most definitely worse and I have to say - though it is peddled out in debates like this constantly, it is still true - Iraq has been taken away from the Iraqi people by us in the form of the IMF, US corporations and the puppet government. The IMF controls the Iraqi economy which leaves it room to hand chunks over to US corporations which in turn means the government already dependent on US troops for security, has no control over economic policy as well. A government with no control over the country in these significant ways, is no government but merely a paper, puppet government.

It is a government in its infancy. Helpless, needy, crying out for protection until it can protect itself. As a socialist, you should be able to see the clear need for government to do all it can to protect and care for its people, including calling out to foreign protectors if need be. You see a government installed by the United Staes. I see a body of Iraqis that were elected by Iraqis and who have the power to shape the future of their country for better or for worse. Sunni political boycotts and Shiite power-hoarders hardly smell of an all powerful U.S. controlling hand. True, this elected body is largely confused by the sudden amount of power handed to them. And true, the iraqi people are familiar with tyranny and not freedom, thus they do not understand that freedom has its evils also- but that it is up to the people to curb the temptation towards evil in a free society and instead pursue social harmony through individual pursuit of happiness.

You do realise there is over 70% unemployment in most areas of Iraq, yet you wonder why there is violence?

You must have me confused with someone else. I do not question why there is violence. Nor do I disregard the unemployment as a factor in violence. Now, under your very same logic, then it would be of the greatest benefit of the Iraqi people to establish security and promote growth through rebuilding. Given the choice between a rifle and a job, I think we can agree that most Iraqis would choose to feed their families.

You must realise - your an intelligent lad, no?

Let's be cordial.

- that there is no running water, working electricity and sanitation in significant areas of Iraq, yet you still wonder why there is violence.

Where did I ponder the continuing violence? I said it ain't over. I said that Idaho likes to see failure so that he can wallow in and thrill in the failure of his political enemies. I assume this goes for you too.

You also must have seen the Iraqi prisoner abuse which has happened and you still wonder why there is violence?

While I do not think it was as severe as pumped up by political enemies of Republicans, I am utterly disgusted with the prisoner neglect. The United States has held the moral high ground in nearly every conflict it has ever been engaged in, with the exception of Vietnam, where political idiots interefered at the tactical level and the worst officers in American history allowed instances of horror to occur on a regular basis.

But on topic, I am not at all surprised at the reaction of the prisoner abuse scenario. And good. That'll teach us to be incompetent and tolerant of abuse.

You realise how many innocent Iraqi people have died - though looking back on my sig, that isn't certain now is it? - yet you still wonder why there is violence.

You really must have me confused with someone else. I know perfectly well "why" there is violence.

You must realise that you have let terrorists into the country and they are causing havoc, yet you still wonder why there is violence.

To be honest, it actually seems like we are disagreeing on very little thus far. Except that you have me confused with some moron who constantly wonders why there is violence in Iraq.

And more, as stated before the invasion the ethnic and religious lines are being exploited as shown - you must have seen it right? - with the bombing of the famous golden dome, yet you still wonder why there is violence.

I wonder, wonder why...

These people are not fighting because they are violent terrorists out to cause the magnificent spreader of democracy himself, George Dubya(!), a great deal of political damage.

No I said he was happy that there is violence. You're killing me man, was I really that inarticulate?

No they are fighting for VERY legitimate and VERY predictable reasons,

Let's seeeee..... Hmmm. I believe my original post said... ahhh, yes. Here it is:

These people are fighting for their lives, fighting for a chance to have something they never dreamed possible- freedom!

So. We seem to agree. Again.

reasons stated by those such as Idaho before the war started, which is exactly why Bush, his cronies and people like you have all got blood on your hands, in fact quite the opposite of what you state in your silly post.

I will gladly have blood on my hands so that my fellow Americans can live free from theocratic totalitarian tyranny. And I will be glad to have blood on my hands to see the world free as well. And I would bathe in the blood of my enemies and wallow in their misery, just as the socialists and other elitists who claim to know what is best for others would swim in the entrails of their capitalist foes.

Maybe next time you should listen to those who would call themselves liberals, it would probably be an enlightenment.

It is the continual war of the people versus the aristocracy. The democrats versus the oligarchs. A war against those who would set their own destiny against those that would set the destiny for others. And that is why your precious tyrannical socialism will never work. Because people will die and kill to ensure that petty aspiring tyrants will never take their property and dictate their lives.

It is also why Democracy in Iraq is slowly taking root. It is why the Sunnis are now openly fighting against foreign insurgents. It is why people are dipping their trigger fingers into purple ink, if just for one day.


Oh, and welcome back by the way. Good to see you posting again. :cheers:

[Papewaio]

Meh! give it all to Israel

[Crazed Rabbit]

Eh, first let me move out of the solar system then. I don't want the radiation to get me.

As for the topic- I daresay there's still hope. But DA's right about the perverse pleasure of some leftists over the hardships facing the US and democracy in Iraq.

No they are fighting for VERY legitimate and VERY predictable reasons,

I take it you've made your weekly donation to the IRA?

Crazed Rabbit

[Just A Girl]

Remember that Big red button i somtimes mention in these situations..

Usualy connected to Huge ammounts of nucular weapons...

Well heres a nother oppertunaty for me.

"ahem"

PUSH THE BUTTON!

----------------------

And just to stir up the water.
I say..
after the fallout dissipates.
and some thing starts growing back there

Give it all to the Jews

[Xiahou]

As for the topic- I daresay there's still hope. But DA's right about the perverse pleasure of some leftists over the hardships facing the US and democracy in Iraq.

I agree, it's a little premature to chuck it in.

[Tribesman]

I call it a battlefield against theocratic totalitarianism.

Divinus , in that case , since your campaign in Iraq has given control to the Iranian backed theocrats does that mean you have lost the battle ?
And since it is a global war , does the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the fact that they are more popular with the population now than when they were in government mean that that battle is lost aswell ?

[Quietus]

As I said all those long years ago. There are three options for Iraq:

• Partition
• Civil War
• A Saddam Style dictator

Well we all know that Partition is possibly the worst option in terms of a wider Iran/Turkey/Kurdistan/Jordan war, and the civil war possibility is there for all to see.

However the third option does seem to be materialising too:

Assasination of Iraq Dissidents

I don't know how Iraq can be partitioned. Who controls the oil? I've read awhile ago that the oil fields are concentrated in a certain political area (South? I can't exactly remember).