Walking on eggshells: Gender reassignment surgery

[Divinus Arma]

Okay. I am going to do this the politically correct way and avoid being banned again. It is an honest poll question and I will ask it without being offensive.

If a male has his genitals surgically cut off, does that make him a female in your eyes?

I am curious if you would see him as a male with new "gear", or as a female. I think this is an hinest question and I just want to get a grip on the general feelings out there.

If you would consider a male with an artifically placed vagina a female, then it would be logical to presume that you would view him as a sexual object similar to a natural female...

Solypsist, I know you closed this twice, but you warned me on language, not on topic. Let me know if you have trouble with this topic and let's come to a compromise.

[Duke John]

Very limited poll options that shows your narrow-mindedness very well.

How about a man looking like a woman? You just had to add disfigured. If you only want to hear your own opinion why ask for others?

[Duke John]

And where did I wrote I was talking about a man in woman clothes?

[Samurai Waki]

... still a man... thing...who cares anyway? or has the notion of "my body my temple" been lost on us all? bloody right wing conservativism is somehow reversing itself into a communist mind setting where everyone better well think the same damn thoughts...

[Big_John]

the poll options maybe be stilted, but the bigger issue is with the question itself. i'm certainly no expert, but "gender reassignment" is hardly limited to removing the genitals, is it? i would think that the hormone therapy is at least as important. (i am assuming that you are talking about trans-gender people, and not simply asking about men who have lost their genitals... ala a eunuch or something)

it's an interesting question when one considers technology. i imagine at some point in the future we will be able to make trans-sexual or trans-gender (whatever the appropriate term may be) individuals to be more similar to the natural gender they are trying to emulate.

let's imagine, for example, that at some point we are able to create a fully functioning vagina, uterus and pair of ovaries in a person who was a biologically normal male (imo, this is certainly a possibility with biotechnology progressing as it is). does this person become a female now? if not, what's preventing them from becoming so, their history as a man?

what if this were done before that person reached puberty? what about as a newborn? what about as a fetus, in-utero? when exactly does the sex of a person becoming irrevocable?

from what tiny little i know about the current state of the procedures involved, i would tend to vote for the first option in this poll. but i imagine a distinction will become increasing less clear as the procedures evolve and improve.

[Watchman]

I'm pretty sure male genitals getting cut off is normally called "neutering" or somehting to that effect, and the end product tends to go by the name "eunuch". Who, so far as I know, are not exactly considered women, but males no longer able to fuilfill their reproductive function.

Well, that's what the poll question is. Taken at face value, the answer to that is without doubt that such people would still be considered "male".

Actual gender modification is AFAIK rather more complicated both as a medical operation and as a question. And you know, I kind of dislike muddily worded and ill-defined questions particularly over complex issues...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A man who is surgically altered to appear feminine is still a man because what defines the sexes is our reproductive roles. A woman has a womb, end of, as far as I'm concerned.

[Slyspy]

Watchman has the right of it. This poll may not be locked but it is a bald attempt to reinforce the pollster's own beliefs. I voted for the first option because it is the only possible correct answer, though not for the reasons DA wanted.

[Vladimir]

If you have a 'Y' chromozome you're a guy, period. There are certain, rare, genetic "unfortunates" out there and they may be the exception. It's REAL simple: XX=female, XY=male.

[Devastatin Dave]

Its still a man, a very disturbed and sick man that should be put somewhere so they have no influence on society. I believe California should have a wall put around it and the seaside mined and put all the perverted and their supporters there so they can live in Brokeback Utopia, fornicating each other, animals, dead bodies, whatever gives the "progressive" mindset its jollies these days. Let filth wallow with filth.

[Lemur]

If you have a 'Y' chromozome you're a guy, period. There are certain, rare, genetic "unfortunates" out there and they may be the exception. It's REAL simple: XX=female, XY=male.

Don't forget, you can be really unlucky and wind up with an XYY combination. Article:

XYY syndrome is a rare chromosomal disorder that affects males. It is caused by the presence of an extra Y chromosome. Males normally have one X and one Y chromosome. However, individuals with this syndrome have one X and two Y chromosome. Affected individuals are usually very tall and thin. Many experience severe acne during adolescence. Additional symptoms may include antisocial or behavioral problems and learning disabilities. Intelligence is usually normal, although IQ, on average, is 10 to 15 points lower than siblings.

[DemonArchangel]

Eh, your body, your choice. What else can I say.

[solypsist]

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

[Lemur]

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

[Ianofsmeg16]

Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

What is a YY foetus called? lol a superman?

[solypsist]

cut me some slack; i'm hung over.

Corrected: XY or XX. YY chromosomal fetuses do happen, but they cannot come to term. The X chromosome contains a lot of info necessary for the human body that has nothing to do with gender.

[Lemur]

Oh you could be hung over -- or maybe you're a disfigured male! I know I am. Not sure how, exactly, but I'm feeling very disfigured today.

[Tachikaze]

last time i checked, gender was decided by either XY or YY chromosomes.

Sex is determined by chromosomes; gender is decided by society.

[Crazed Rabbit]

gender is decided by society

Care to explain? Sounds a bit odd to me.

As for the poll: a mutilated male.

Crazed Rabbit

[discovery1]

Care to explain?

Well, I imagine that it is the idea that gender is how member of the sexes act and operate in society, not just what is between their legs. Like different gender roles in different societies.


On topic, I suppose it has to be a xase by case basis. If it's just genital mutilation/sex chage surgery no. Course, if it comes with hormonal treatements, then its closer to being a women. And if we want to go purely by actions deciding gender, then you don't even need the knife for that. And in the case that was on this board earlier, no way. I voted diconfigured male btw, although I suppose the pole is pretty bad.

[Kanamori]

Who cares anyway? If they're not harming anybody, I couldn't care less. We don't make a special point of trying to classify boys born with very small penises or women born with both. Of course, we could just toss those terribly disfigured infants into California, or the nearest river if California is too far away.

[A.Saturnus]

It is really entirely irrelevant what any of us thinks what sex such a person has.

[Lemur]

If ever a poll needed a Gah! option ...

[Ice]

No, he's still still Male, and will be always be a male.

[Lemur]

Just to expand on the theme -- if I were playing a lot of online RPGs, and I decided that I was really an elf in a man's body, would the membership of the Org send me donations so that I could get elf surgery?

Once I have been altered to resemble an elf, two more questions: Am I really an elf, or just a freaky person? Should I be allowed to teach children in my new elf persona?

Me after my elfectomy:

[Slyspy]

Sure, they'd love it. More clothes may be necessary though. Is your elf persona also gender confused? It certainly looks ambiguous enough to confuse all the other elves.

[ajaxfetish]

As first brought up by Vladimir, if he had his Y chromosome surgically removed I might grant womanhood. Till then it's just wishful thinking.

Ajax

[Big_John]

Sure, they'd love it. More clothes may be necessary though. Is your elf persona also gender confused? It certainly looks ambiguous enough to confuse all the other elves.

hey man, there's nothing ambiguous about that elf-rack! hey-oh!

[Lemur]

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

[Xiahou]

I would like everyone, including Big John, to be respectful of my needs, and not use derogatory terms such as "elf rack." There are proper elvish words for such things. I also expect the Org patrons to refrain from phrases such as "Legolas ta-tas," "mithril chest thumpers," "elf knockers," "keebler muffins" or "elvish bikini stuffing." All of these terms are offensive. Especially for a person who's planning on an elfectomy.

I appreciate your tolerance and understanding. You don't have to appreciate my desire to become an elf, but I ask that you treat it with an open mind.

"keebler muffins".....