Socialist Canadian Healthcare Fails

[makkyo]

Here

"In a free and democratic society where you can spend money on gambling and alcohol and tobacco, the state has no business preventing you and me from spending our own money on health care."

Couldn't have said it better myself. Capitolism begins to win!

[Crazed Rabbit]

About time Canada allows people to pay for healthcare.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ice]

Accepting money from patients for operations they would otherwise receive free of charge in a public hospital is technically prohibited in this country, even in cases where patients would wait months or even years in discomfort before receiving treatment

Gee, I wonder why it's failing?

[Byzantine Prince]

It is really interesting how americans like to comment on us. You don't have to live here ok, stop bothering to say if we are doing good or bad. Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

[Ice]

It is really interesting how americans like to comment on us. You don't have to live here ok, stop bothering to say if we are doing good or bad. Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

Tell you what, when everyone stops criticizing the US, I won't criticize anyone else.

Oh and btw, if Quebec ever breaks apart from you guys, you will be our 51st state.

[Beirut]

About time Canada allows people to pay for healthcare.

Crazed Rabbit

No Health Insurance Coverage - 2004 US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

16% of all Americans (45,000,000 - More than the entire population of Canada)
10% of all children
20% of children in poverty
20% Black Americans
29% Native American
32% Hispanic origin

We want your F-22s, your bourbon, and Jessica Alba, we do not want your health care system thank you very much. We'd prefer to fix the one we have.

Oh and btw, if Quebec ever breaks apart from you guys, you will be our 51st state.

I thought it would be better for all involved if you were our 11th province instead.

[Radier]

Words can't describe how unfair I think the canadian healthcare are.

Shame on Canada.

[lars573]

Gee, I wonder why it's failing?

Because it has a greater load than your does. AS every citizen and permanent resident can use it for free it gets used much more.

[Ice]

Because it has a greater load than your does. AS every citizen and permanent resident can use it for free it gets used much more.

Yes, that is the point.

[BigTex]

Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

Well slightly right and wrong there, if Puerto Rico ever actually has a vote on ratifying the consititution they'll be our 51st. If Canada will just finally get around to voting on the constitution you'd be our 52nd state. So come on Canada we want an "Up or Down vote" on that issue, we've been waiting a couple centuries over here. Even fought a couple war's with britian to spead up that pesky annexing process.

[Redleg]

It is really interesting how americans like to comment on us. You don't have to live here ok, stop bothering to say if we are doing good or bad. Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

So are you going to stop commenting on the United States?

If not then whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Beirut]

Who said our healthcare has failed?

Goodness knows we have to protect ourselves from corporate interests though. There's always going to be some deviant dirtbag who wants to make a profit off of people who are sick and dying, but who says we have to do what they want?

We don't want Wal-Mart hospitals. We want to use a medicare card - not a credit card (as Jack Layton would say). We would rather have the flaws in our system (as there are in all systems) than to replace it with one that is inherently flawed because it is biased towards those with money. It's better if the fault is in the system than in those who use the system. It's better that the hospital says we don't have the space because we're full than to have them say you can't have the space because you're poor.

Absolutely we need to fix our system, it is desperately in need of repair. But we sure as shoot don't want one that, even when it works, leaves 20% of our poorest children and over 30% of some minority groups without any health coverage at all. Plainly said, for-profit healthcare run by large corporations is an anachronism in a progressive society. It's a throwback to the days of snake oil salesmen and debtor's prisons. It is a savage cruelty and an insulting indignancy upon the weakest members of a society who have a right to protection by the country they live in.

What's next, the police and firemen don't respond unless you give your Mastercard # to the 911 operator? And if you don't have the cash, do they send rookies with older equipment instead of the pros with the newest technology, just as poor people get poor people hospitals instead of rich people hospitals?

It's exactly the same thing.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It is really interesting how americans like to comment on us. You don't have to live here ok, stop bothering to say if we are doing good or bad. Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

You *are* our 51st state.

[Xiahou]

Who said our healthcare has failed?

Goodness knows we have to protect ourselves from corporate interests though. There's always going to be some deviant dirtbag who wants to make a profit off of people who are sick and dying, but who says we have to do what they want?

How many medical breakthroughs are a result of someone being nice and doing charity work and how many make the inventor rich? Your system is dependant on 'for profit' medicine. What really irks me about it is that Americans are subsidizing Canadian healthcare by paying higher prices for medicine that allow Canadians to get government discounted rates. We have to fund the R&D out of our pockets.

What I'd like to see happen is widespread re-importation from Canada to the US of cheap medication(like our government constantly tries to stop). Once the drug companies profits started drying up, they'd renegotiate their Canadian contracts right quick and you guys would have to start paying your fair share(whether via the welfare state or personally), lowering our costs in the process.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Beirut, anyone in the US can get quick healthcare without worrying about money just be going to an emergency room. They are required, by law, to treat everyone.

Goodness knows we have to protect ourselves from corporate interests though. There's always going to be some deviant dirtbag who wants to make a profit off of people who are starving, but who says we have to do what they want?

Ban all private food manufacturers and distributers! Don't let anyone make such a gross thing as profit off the essentials of life! Make sure everyone gets the same quality food! It's for the children!

You need to read some more Adam Smith.

Crazed Rabbit

P.S. Just curious, but are you against anybody paying for healthcare even if Canada keeps its national healthcare system?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well slightly right and wrong there, if Puerto Rico ever actually has a vote on ratifying the consititution they'll be our 51st. If Canada will just finally get around to voting on the constitution you'd be our 52nd state. So come on Canada we want an "Up or Down vote" on that issue, we've been waiting a couple centuries over here. Even fought a couple war's with britian to spead up that pesky annexing process.

This attitude is really disturbing, what give you the right to frame a constition for a whole continant without asking anyone else?

As to this issue, well public helfcare basically just needs an injection of cash and common sense. Oh, and it should only ever be run to brake even, etra cash should all go back into the system.

[Beirut]

What really irks me about it is that Americans are subsidizing Canadian healthcare by paying higher prices for medicine that allow Canadians to get government discounted rates. We have to fund the R&D out of our pockets.

I've heard the big drug companies charge US citizens up to ten times as much for the same drugs as many Europeans pay. That's not us doing that - it's the drug comanies. The drug companies are like the oil companies, always crying about how tough things are and all the while they're making profits on a galactic scale. I have no problem with them making money, but I do have a problem with them making supertankers full of cash while crying poverty and gouging the public at the same time

Ban all private food manufacturers and distributers! Don't let anyone make such a gross thing as profit off the essentials of life! Make sure everyone gets the same quality food! It's for the children!

You need to read some more Adam Smith.

Crazed Rabbit

P.S. Just curious, but are you against anybody paying for healthcare even if Canada keeps its national healthcare system?

We don't let people starve to death. For-profit medicine does allow people to die for lack of money. Also, decent food is an affordable commodity in North America. I've been poor and I never went to bed hungry. You just need to be educated about how to shop and how to eat well. Being sick is beyond anyone's control and the costs can destroy even a well off family. Also, this extreme burden of making large payments comes at exactly the time when making those payments is most difficult and the family is already under severe stress.

I don't want anybody paying because it creates a slippery slope. I view healthcare as a right, just like having the police and fireman and the judge help you in times of need. If some people get "better" service on a for-profit basis, that means someone else is probably getting less service, they being less-equal as it were. Canada, like the US, is a very rich country full of intelligent and creative people, there is no reason whatsoever that we cannot care for all of us equally and well. It's simply a lack of will power on the part of those in charge.

[Xiahou]

I've heard the big drug companies charge US citizens up to ten times as much for the same drugs as many Europeans pay. That's not us doing that - it's the drug comanies. The drug companies are like the oil companies, always crying about how tough things are and all the while they're making profits on a galactic scale. I have no problem with them making money, but I do have a problem with them making supertankers full of cash while crying poverty and gouging the public at the same time

Yes, and I had posted a solution too- make everyone else pay their fair share via market forces. If Canada gets meds on the cheap, let Americans buy their medication from Canada. Then, the drug companies will have no choice but to make Canadians pay their fair share- as I said.

[discovery1]

I've heard the big drug companies charge US citizens up to ten times as much for the same drugs as many Europeans pay. That's not us doing that - it's the drug comanies. The drug companies are like the oil companies, always crying about how tough things are and all the while they're making profits on a galactic scale. I have no problem with them making money, but I do have a problem with them making supertankers full of cash while crying poverty and gouging the public at the same time

Beruit, while they may be making galactic sized profits, that matters little if they can't do better in the stock market. IE, if they put x amounts of money into R&D, they expect to get back X as much and then some. And that extra would be the return they expect to get in the stock market. If they can't do that well, then there is no point to investing in new medicine. Now, if you could prove that the rate of return on their investments in new drugs is much more than that on the stock market, then you would have an arguement.


And Xiahou, don't be too sure that the Canadians paying their fair share would lower drug costs here much. There are how many Canadians and how many Americans in the drug market?

[Beirut]

Yes, and I had posted a solution too- make everyone else pay their fair share via market forces. If Canada gets meds on the cheap, let Americans buy their medication from Canada. Then, the drug companies will have no choice but to make Canadians pay their fair share- as I said.

You want to make medicine more affordable by charging us more for it? Thanks, I feel better already. What about Europe, are you ready to tell them they have to pay ten times as much for their medicine as they do now? Do you think they'll want to fork over all that cash for the drug companies who are doubtlessly posting record profits as speak?

This is an interesting link.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244

In truth, the drug companies are a side issue. The real issue is that the government should take control of healthcare and make it a priority and fight sickness with the same energy as it fights a war. Every year cancer kills a hundred times more Americans than the 9/11 attacks did. And it does it year after year, decade after decade. Where are the hundreds of billions that could be spent on the battle to save those American lives? Why are their lives left to the whim of insurance companies and private corporations while other people's lives merit the the expenditure of the full weight of government money and resources. I just don't get it.

My concern is with saving lives. Period. Call it anything you want, capitalism, communism, liberalism, or just plain stupidity. The only goal is to ease people's suffering. That your country and mine have not figured out how to do this properly is criminal.

[Xiahou]

You want to make medicine more affordable by charging us more for it? Thanks, I feel better already. What about Europe, are you ready to tell them they have to pay ten times as much for their medicine as they do now? Do you think they'll want to fork over all that cash for the drug companies who are doubtlessly posting record profits as speak?

As Discovery1 rightly pointed out, Canada alone wouldnt have a great impact on our prices (although every bit counts), so yes, we'd have to do the same thing to Europeans so they'd pay their fair shares as well.

Canada can do what it wants, the US will keep taking their paying customers who dont want to suffer in line for a year to get treated. And that's the problem with a 'one size fits all' government enforced system. Different people have different healthcare needs, including people who cause their own health problems by over-eating, smoking, heroin, whatever- yet, everyone pays that same amount even if you dont use the system. As a result, many could care less about the financial impact of their life-decisions since they'll pay no more or less than anyone else. Unfortunately, the US healthcare system is leaning more and more towards socialization as well- with the increased costs and ineffeciency that goes with it.

[Papewaio]

I assume Canada has private hospitals and such as well... so those who can pay for it have the option of skipping the queues/having a wider set of choices/more privacy/quicker response for elective surgery.

Australia has a medicare card. And we have Private Health funds. Once you are 30 you have to pay for a private health fund, and for every year you delay doing so you get a permanent 1% surcharge. There is a tax deduction for a portion of the private health fund too.

Now if you are poor and cannot afford a private health fund you still will get all the normal medical treatments. Private health funds really only help pay for glasses/contact lenses, long hospital stays, elective surgery, and expensive dental work. Public health is generally better for things like emergency care, children's wards and maternity wards (in an emergency a lot of private hospitals transfer the patient to the public hospital... the only real benefit is a private room).

As for the drug companies... they will gouge as much as they can off whomever they can.

[Csargo]

Do you think we are your 51st state or something?

Wait Canada isn't part of the U.S.
Guess you learn something new everyday.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

And that's the problem with a 'one size fits all' government enforced system. Different people have different healthcare needs, including people who cause their own health problems by over-eating, smoking, heroin, whatever- yet, everyone pays that same amount even if you dont use the system. As a result, many could care less about the financial impact of their life-decisions since they'll pay no more or less than anyone else.

Since when are Americans health conscious?


Medical breakthroughs as a result of capitalism are good and all, but the cooporations are only going to develop what they can sell, even if it isn't what's needed (like all those cholesteral drugs on the market). I'd sooner have the gov't fund the research.

[Ironside]

As Discovery1 rightly pointed out, Canada alone wouldnt have a great impact on our prices (although every bit counts), so yes, we'd have to do the same thing to Europeans so they'd pay their fair shares as well.

Interesting statement.
So according to you the solution for the unusal high prices on food here in Sweden (even compared without taxes) is to rise the prices in the rest of Europe.

Such a brilliant and capitalistic statement.

[Samurai Waki]

I like Canada and I couldn't image it as any American territory...EVER... where else in North America can I go to Sex Clubs?

[Beirut]

As Discovery1 rightly pointed out, Canada alone wouldnt have a great impact on our prices (although every bit counts), so yes, we'd have to do the same thing to Europeans so they'd pay their fair shares as well.

You make it sound like the whole world is living off the backs of the poor underfunded US drug companies and by proxy off the backs of the US citizens.

Just so you know, many crucial life-saving drugs used today were invented decades ago. In other countries believe it or not.

Like insulin.

In Canada.

Canada can do what it wants, the US will keep taking their paying customers who dont want to suffer in line for a year to get treated.

The US can do what it wants. Canada will keeping taking in its poor who do not want to suffer the immoral indignity of being told they are going to die because they don't have any money.

(I edited quote below)

And that's the problem with a 'one size fits all' government enforced system. Different people have different police and fire needs, including people who cause their own problems. Yet, everyone pays that same amount even if you dont use the system. As a result, many could care less about the financial impact of their life-decisions since they'll pay no more or less than anyone else. Unfortunately, the US police and fire system is leaning more and more towards socialization as well- with the increased costs and ineffeciency that goes with it.

I replaced the word "healthcare" with "police and fire". If capitalism is capitalism, shouldn't the above statement be true as well?

[Watchman]

What the fig is it with this "privatize privatize" mania anyway ? There's a pretty blatantly obvious problem in leaving issues that, on the whole, aren't so good at actually making profit up to mechanisms that ultimately rely on greed. Quite a few important services quite simply cannot be provided for everyone who needs them if you also want to avoid deficit on the side, period.

Proposing to leave such life-or-death matters up to the vicissitudes of profiteering capitalism is either insane or criminally neglicient IMO.

...sometimes I wonder if Americans who keep going on about it actually just want everyone else's systems to get screwed as totally as theirs already is... maybe just for their own peace of mind, since in their worldview "socialist" arrangements cannot work and any that actually do cannot be accepted else the whole thing starts falling apart...
Just a suspicion I sometimes get in my more cynical and spiteful moments.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

There's a pretty blatantly obvious problem in leaving issues that, on the whole, aren't so good at actually making profit up to mechanisms that ultimately rely on greed.

This was one of the reasons that the privatization of the UK's railways went so badly. It's simply not possible to make a profit while providing a service that meets the countries needs-meaning prices have risen while the quality of the service has decreased.

[Vladimir]

Sorry folks, late to the game. Beirut, luv ya and all but there are a few issues. This study you mentioned:

No Health Insurance Coverage - 2004 US Census Bureau
http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

16% of all Americans (45,000,000 - More than the entire population of Canada)
10% of all children
20% of children in poverty
20% Black Americans
29% Native American
32% Hispanic origin

Was that the study where if you were uninsured for one day out of the year you were considered uninsured for the whole year? How many of these people chose to not have health coverage (like me for a while)? (no I'm not reading the entire 85 pages)

And about eeeeeevil corporations and the well meaning, benevolent government control:

Who said our healthcare has failed?

Goodness knows we have to protect ourselves from corporate interests though. There's always going to be some deviant dirtbag who wants to make a profit off of people who are sick and dying, but who says we have to do what they want?

I seem to remember something about Canada's government falling due to a massive corruption scandal. You're not one of those corporatephobes, are you?