Chivalric Sergeants

[Powermonger]

Does anyone know why CA made Chivalric Sergeants have less morale and attacking penality compared to Feudals or Gothics?

I've been perusing the the unit_prod excel spreadsheets provided by CA in the past and they have the CS classed as Missile troop type (hence why it gets a negative attack stat and less morale). There is a comment in the spreadsheet from 'Bob Smith' that they were lessened to make the transition to Gothic Sergeants more smoother.

If you look at the Feudal and Gothic Sergeant troop class setting, they are both set to NORMAL. Feudals are also classed as being unarmoured, where as Chivalric's are classed as having mail armour. It just seems strange that the Chivs would have their morale penalised for wearing armour, I would think their morale would be equal to Feudals as they'd be more confident due to actually wearing armour now.

I guess it is easy for me to modify the Chivs so they are classed as NORMAL troops, I was just curious to know why Chivs got penalised as such and if anyone have any inside knowledge of the design decision.

[ajaxfetish]

I think the change was made entirely for gameplay reasons. Without those weaknesses, Chivalric Sergeants are not significantly weaker than Gothic sergeants, and since Gothics have so many inherent limitations (only 2 factions get them, and only in late, and unless you mod them the unit has only 60 men) it isn't worth it to make the investment to get them.

Anyhow, Chivalric Sergeants still are by no means a weak unit. They're not necessarily better than the Feudal version, but they're different. They're much better for holding a defensive line and weathering storms of arrows, but much worse for anchoring a flank or marching long distances. Gothic sergeants then have the same strengths and weaknesses as the Chivalric's, but considerably magnified.

Ajax

[tigger_on_vrb]

I dont think its unreasonable to give an attck penalty to a more heavily armoured version of basically the same troop type. If a guy has the same weapon, but heavier armour and is less maneouverable it would be more difficult for him to land a blow, but clearly the heavier armoured guy is going to hold the line better, which is the way most people use spearmen.
I guess the morale value is for more balanced gameplay rather than realistic reasons.

[econ21]

It's a game balancing fudge. The stats in MTW are based mechanically on a formula for weapons, armour, troop quality etc. Chainmail is an extremely good upgrade (+3 to armour and defence, IIRC), making the step up from Feudal Sergeants to Chivalric Sergeants a little too big. So CA nerfed the CS a little by making them "low" quality (-1 attack, -2 morale, IIRC) to try to balance that.

Conversely, I think they gave the Chivalric knights a +1 attack as an explicit fudge factor to make the upgrade from Feudal knights worthwhile.

You can see all this in an excel file CA released for the MTW stats.

[Patron]

On the contrary, if you and your unit is wearing armour and you starting dropping like flies you know something has gone terribly wrong and are more likely to flee. whereas if you are an unarmoured feudal seargant you almost expect to experience horrific casualties and know there is a chance of winning regardless. Chivarlris seargants are elite so they don't care if unarmoured units suffer terrible casualties.

[Ludens]

On the contrary, if you and your unit is wearing armour and you starting dropping like flies you know something has gone terribly wrong and are more likely to flee. whereas if you are an unarmoured feudal seargant you almost expect to experience horrific casualties and know there is a chance of winning regardless. Chivarlris seargants are elite so they don't care if unarmoured units suffer terrible casualties.

I don't quite follow your logic. So feudal sergeants won't run when their comrades around them start dropping like flies because this is to be expected? By the same reasoning peasants would never run because, you know, it's only to be expected that they get slaughtered in droves. With equal casualities, it is matter of troop quality whether units will rout, not how many casualities were expected. Chivalric sergeants are of lower quality than feudal ones, despite better equipment.

[Grey_Fox]

Chivalric sergeants are of lower quality than feudal ones, despite better equipment.

I'm not so sure. I've seen FS rout extremely quickly, and anyways, CS beat FS hands down.

[Ironside]

Chivalric sergeants are of lower quality than feudal ones, despite better equipment.

I'm not so sure. I've seen FS rout extremely quickly, and anyways, CS beat FS hands down.

Did you follow the tread?
To summarize:
CS as strong as Italian infantry was considered overpowered so they nerfed CS a bit by making it "low quality". It'll still kick the FS's, ass but not by as much as they were originally supposed to.
Another difference is also that the CS comes later so you usually got larger morale upgrades on them, so that nerf isn't as obvious as it could've been. The reduced attack is felt more.

The reduced morale will make the CS run earlier if all things are considered equal (including casualities), but the CS will by default take less losses and thus compensating for its lower morale.

[antisocialmunky]

Plus, FSes are fairly good desert infantry while CS are slower and tend to get exhausted because of their armour which makes them easy to rout.

CSes are made for fighting in Europe.

[Peasant Phill]

With decent polearms in your army to counter cav and armoured troops, does it make sense to produce CS? Or do they become niche troops (good at one task only) able to be the 'anvil' as no other unit.

[ajaxfetish]

The best use by far for any spear unit in any period is as an 'anvil,' and chivalric sergeants continue to field that role better than polearms. The large unit size means they can cover a larger front, and with rank bonuses they can hold on defensively for a long time and are very hard to push back.

They continue to be the best troops for holding a line, and they're cheaper per man to build and maintain than any polearm unit, so great for when money is tight or you need more bulk to your army. But with the advent of decent polearms they are no longer strictly necessary. They don't become useless or excessively limited, but they do become optional. Depending on your preferences as a commander, you can keep them or organize an army without them.

Ajax

[Roark]

Ajax is spot-on.

If you ever need to establish a "front" just before a major clash, just get a unit of Chivalric Sargeants and plop a polearm unit behind them. These two units working in tandem can hold back pretty much anything in a melee for a really long time.

[Ironside]

And they're gods to survive arrowfire.

[antisocialmunky]

Until Arbs come around and they lose a chunk of armour protection.

Does AP Arrow vs Chivalric Seargents make them equal to Feudals? 3-int(3/2) Armour after application and 0 Morale vs 1 Armour and 2 Morale?

Also, does anyone regularly use Gothic Seargents?

[ajaxfetish]

I'm not sure since the AP system for ranged is different from melee. I've seen it presented a couple times, but never tried hard enough to figure out how it works. They'd suffer but still have more protection than feudals, but I'm not sure how closely that'd balance the difference in morale.

Ajax

[Ironside]

I'm not sure since the AP system for ranged is different from melee. I've seen it presented a couple times, but never tried hard enough to figure out how it works. They'd suffer but still have more protection than feudals, but I'm not sure how closely that'd balance the difference in morale.

Ajax

It's a simple raw modifier IIRC, 0,3 for arbs, 0,4 for crossbows and 0,5 for longbows while 1 for regular arrows.

[Ciaran]

Ajax is right on his use of Chivalric Sergeants, don´t go to battle without them (unless you can get Italian or Saracen Infantry, which have the same stats, but higher morale). I certainly never do. There´s nothing better than a solid wall of spears to deploy from.

Gothic sergeant suffer two flaws, in my opinion: They come around way too late to be usefull (even if you start playing in the Late era, it´ll almost be over by the time you´ve fulfilled the building requirements, much the same goes for Gothic Knights) and they´re only 80 men, so they can´t cover the same front line Chivalrics can.

[Peasant Phill]

After reading Frogbeast's guide (that's almost a year ago) I thought that CS were almost obsolete. Only to be useful when defending a hill for example with no intention of making a counter attack other than flanking the unit that's currently battling your spears.

[ajaxfetish]

Gothic sergeant suffer two flaws, in my opinion: They come around way too late to be usefull (even if you start playing in the Late era, it´ll almost be over by the time you´ve fulfilled the building requirements, much the same goes for Gothic Knights) and they´re only 80 men, so they can´t cover the same front line Chivalrics can.

I felt exactly the same way about Gothic sergeants, and yet I really like the diversity and cultural flavor of the later units, so I modded gothics to be the same size as other spear units. They're still very hard to tech up to and slow as can be, but at least with full unit size their incredible armor is enough in my mind to balance the other weaknesses. They're still not versatile, but at least worth using.

Ajax

[littlebktruck]

I like chivalric sergeants. I'm playing an early campaign as the Sicilians, and my feudals are being eaten up by Almohad urban militia. I can't wait untill 1205 (only a few more turns now).

[mfberg]

Chivalric Sergeants are good with a couple of morale upgrades. The fun unit is the Gothic Sergeants, slow and heavy but able to hold a bridge better than pikes. I use them for castle and river defense when I can't get Swiss Armoured Pikes. My favorite bridge defense is Gothic Sergeants at the center of my U, with pike units as the sides, and a couple of serpentines, organ guns, or culverin on the corners. The rest of my units can be most anything, as long as some of them have some ranged ability nobody gets through unless the enemy has brought decent artillery.

mfberg

[Ciaran]

After reading Frogbeast's guide (that's almost a year ago) I thought that CS were almost obsolete. Only to be useful when defending a hill for example with no intention of making a counter attack other than flanking the unit that's currently battling your spears.

That depends on which guide you´re referring to. True, the Beginner´s Guide states to swap the spears in High era to Halberdiers. You can do that, I´ve tried and that formation works well, too. But, in my opinion, if you want to keep using spear units - and there are a lot of good reasons to do so - and you don´t happen to be the Italians you´re better of with Chivalric Sergeants than their Feudal counterpart.

By the way, hadn´t I played MTW for almost a year by now, I´d be surprised how often you´re in a defensive position on a hill, even when, from a strategic point of view, attacking.

[econ21]

I like chivalric sergeants. I'm playing an early campaign as the Sicilians, and my feudals are being eaten up by Almohad urban militia. I can't wait untill 1205 (only a few more turns now).

Don't get your hopes up. The AUMs will still chew up Chiv. Sergeants. AUMs are powerful anti-infantry units in the early game. I'm not sure what the best counter is. Heavy cavalry (knights) will do ok, especially if flanking. FMAA and CMAA are about equal to AUMs. Halberdiers should beat them. Probably the best thing is just shoot them (shooting is my preferred solution to all "elite" units - an arbalest bolt doesn't care if the target is elite or not).

[Ludens]

The AUMs will still chew up Chiv. Sergeants. AUMs are anti-infantry powerful units in the early game. I'm not sure what the best counter is. They are not good against heavy cavalry (knights), especially if flanked. FMAA and CMAA are about equal to them. Halberdiers should beat them up. Probably the best thing is just shoot them (shooting is my preferred solution to all "elite" units - an arbalest bold doesn't care if the target is elite or not).

If I can recruit them, Jinettes are my prefered anti-AUM unit, preferably in combination with a good pinning unit.

[Ciaran]

One thing is important to keep in mind with all spear units, they´re not made to kill enemies. Their task is keeping the enemy in place so others can do the killing. They´re not the sword of the army, they´re the shield. For killing rather use Men at Arms, polearms (from Militia Sregeants up) or cavalry, the heavier the better.