Question regarding stats

[Sowilo]

I know that formations, vegetation, yell, relief etc. affect the troops, but how exactly?

- A testudo protect you against arrows. But how? Does it increases the defense? What about wedge, phalanx?
- I looked the files up because of Egyptian fighting in snow etc. there is just one number for each reagion. Does this number affect the moral? Attack damage? Or what?
- Does the yelling increase the damage? How exactly?
- If a unit has to climb a hill they have disadvantages fighting units at the top. Which one?
- Do higher ranks increases the moral too or attack and defense only?

[econ21]

Most of this stuff we don't know, as CA regards their formulae as trade secrets. They did tell us the formulae for STW and MTW (basically the difference between attack and defence determines kill chances, after many potential situational modifiers), so we might have a reasonable idea on some points - but they also told us they had changed the formulae dramatically with RTW.

I believe:

Tetsudo apparently makes you vulnerable in melee.

Wedge raises attack, lowers defence.

Phalanx probably allows more ranks to support the melee, perhaps raising attack and especially defence (pikes did that in MTW anyway). I wonder if there's also a funky "stand-off" effect at work, so that phalanxes can sometimes wipe out hastati etc without the enemy doing hardly any damage.

Height raises kill probabilities of those with the advantage and lowers them of those below.

Other terrain advantages - e.g. good or bad in a desert etc - probably modify attack.

I doubt ranks raise morale. There's a "push" effect to do with mass that gives ranks some value in stopping penetration (esp. useful in stalling cav charges).

I don't know about yelling but guess it's an attack boost. (Morale would make sense too, but I don't know).

[Avicenna]

I wonder if there's also a funky "stand-off" effect at work, so that phalanxes can sometimes wipe out hastati etc without the enemy doing hardly any damage.

Yes, it does. When I played TGC against the Scipii using 6 militia hoplites VS their 3 hastasi, I ganged up 2 V 1 and massacred them almost without a loss. There were some stray hastasi who walked to the side to kill some hoplites though, but they were soon dead or routing.

[econ21]

Here's one of my favorite demonstrations of the power of the phalanx - my levey pikemen walked over Praetorians without breaking a sweat:



Sadly the phalanx seems much less effective against cavalry. Personally, I think it should be the other way round. I suspect even levy pikemen could stall cavalry whereas the Praetorian swordsmen would have some chance of working their way into the phalanx formation.

[Sowilo]

No wonder that I didn't found the information if they keep them secret.

I doubt ranks raise morale. There's a "push" effect to do with mass that gives ranks some value in stopping penetration (esp. useful in stalling cav charges).

I am sry I mean the "valor"? I have the German version and don't know the exact names.

Other terrain advantages - e.g. good or bad in a desert etc - probably modify attack.

You know it? I asked 3 persons:
1: +x to moral, attack and defense
2: +x to moral only
3: +x to attack only

btw. There is one number too if an unit fear for example elephants. Does it effect the moral only or does it decrease attack and defense?

I don't know about yelling but guess it's an attack boost. (Morale would make sense too, but I don't know).

One guy said me that he belives that it decreases the defense of ennemy troops too. Same with screaming/singing. Increases the own attack and maybe moral and decreases the enemy defense?

[econ21]

I am sry I mean the "valor"? I have the German version and don't know the exact names.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here: on ranks, one effect I was talking about is that bunched up troops stop cavalry charges. I believe in the combat model, there is a kind of momentum effect captured, so that if they are not stopped, charging cavalry are more lethal (probably keep their charge bonus). Thick ranks can stop that, I think.

You know it? I asked 3 persons:
1: +x to moral, attack and defense
2: +x to moral only
3: +x to attack only

As I said, we don't know much about RTW. But I do know that modifying attack was the way terrain worked in MTW (according to the official strategy guide)

btw. There is one number too if an unit fear for example elephants. Does it effect the moral only or does it decrease attack and defense?

Not sure - some units get bonuses in attack against other units; I think you can see that in the EDU file.

One guy said me that he belives that it decreases the defense of ennemy troops too. Same with screaming/singing. Increases the own attack and maybe moral and decreases the enemy defense?

In the old formula, raising your attack and lowering the defence of the enemy were equivalent, since the kill probability was a function of the difference (attack-defence).

[Sowilo]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here: on ranks, one effect I was talking about is that bunched up troops stop cavalry charges. I believe in the combat model, there is a kind of momentum effect captured, so that if they are not stopped, charging cavalry are more lethal (probably keep their charge bonus). Thick ranks can stop that, I think.

I don't mean rank as line/row. I mean rank as higher grade of valor/gained experience. If a unit get one of this "^" it make more damage and has a better defense. I asked if it increases the moral too.

[econ21]

OK, I get it. It used to be that one rank of valour raised attack and defence by one each, and morale by two. Multiplayers may be able to confirm whether that is still the case.

[Sowilo]

By two? Wow.
An last question, do you know how much certain circumstances decrease the moral? I mean a killed (own) king will influence the moral more than unprotected wings or not? Or are these information secret too?

btw: bersercs are not very impressed by a phalanx^^.

[econ21]

Here's some stuff originally posted by Sinan - it should really be pinned somewhere:

Morale States
Impetuous: 10 or more
Steady: 2 to 14
Uncertain: -5 to 5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

Morale Penalties
Unit is Very tired: #-3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is Completely Exhausted: -8
10% of unit is KIA (killed in action): -2
50% of unit is KIA: -8
80% of the unit is KIA: -12
Disordered or loose formation: -2
One Flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
One flank and rear threatened: -6
Charged by previously concealed enemy: -8
Infantry charged, by cavalry, in the flank or when in loose/disordered: -6
Taking Enemy Fire (Missile): -2
Taking Enemy Fire (Artillery/Gunpowder/weapons that cause fear): -6
Losing the fight(depending on how bad): upto –8
Infantry losing the fight to cavalry: upto -14
Out of ammo while Skirmishing: -6
Pursued by enemy of equal speed, when skirmishing: -6
Outnumbered/Outclassed 2 to 1: -4
Outnumbered/Outclassed more than 3 to 1: upto –12 depending on enemy numbers and enemy units class (Elite etc.)
Routing Friendlies: upto –12 when 2 or more friendlies routing, depending on the relative quality/class of routers.
General’s Death (first few seconds): -8
General’s Death (for the rest of the battle): -2

Morale Bonuses
No enemy nearby: +4
Rally: +8
No Retreat Possible: +8
Both flanks/one flank & rear protected: +4
2 enemy units are routing: +8
2 enemy units routing, friendlies outnumber enemy 2 to 1: +12
Winning the fight (depends on how good): upto +6
Impetuous Charge(e.g Chivalric Knights “auto” charge): +4
Outnumber enemy 3 to 1 or more than 3 to 1: +4
Valor: +2 morale for every valor point
General in unit: +2
Proximity to General (approx 1.3 map tiles?): +1 for every star
Proximity to General (further than 1.3 map tiles): +1 per 2 stars
Uphill Position (unit is higher than enemy): +2

[Sowilo]

Wow, thx - can I use that (translated for German forums/sites)?

And - it is not possible to increase the charge bonus or the speed of an unit?

[econ21]

Wow, thx - can I use that (translated for German forums/sites)?

If you acknowledge Sinan, I don't think there'd be a problem.

[/QUOTE]And - it is not possible to increase the charge bonus or the speed of an unit?[/QUOTE]

I'm not a modder, but I suspect you can alter those things by editing some of the text files. In game, there's little you can do (I've heard the charge bonus only works against a targeted unit and you need to have built up momentum; you can double click to run of course).

[Avicenna]

Uphill provides a massive bonus as well: I had militia hoplites v spartan hoplites, with them going uphill and my hoplites defending downhill. The spartans routed, having killed less than 10 of my troops.

[Sowilo]

If you acknowledge Sinan, I don't think there'd be a problem.

I'ill write him a PM.

I'm not a modder, but I suspect you can alter those things by editing some of the text files. In game, there's little you can do (I've heard the charge bonus only works against a targeted unit and you need to have built up momentum; you can double click to run of course).

I thought about "regulary" things which could increase charge/speed like valour, moral, whatever.

[Sowilo]

Is the moral list for Medieval only or for Medieval and Rome?

[econ21]

Medieval only - as I said, with RTW, CA started treating a lot of the mathematical info. as trade secrets.

[Sowilo]

It's a pitty, but thx - I guess there will be similar numbers in Rome.