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So there is a large percentage of Afghanistan's population that actually lives off this plant, and nothing else will grow there. Is it really the right thing to do to take that income away from them?
So there is a large percentage of Afghanistan's population that actually lives off this plant, and nothing else will grow there. Is it really the right thing to do to take that income away from them?
It's not correct that "nothing else will grow there".
As far as I've understood the problem, nothing else will earn them anyway near that much money which they get from planting poppies. So, they're reluctant to change to something else.
The main problem I see is that we provide the market and "ask" for the product. They just provide and make a living out of it. If we stop to buy they'll need to change. But we're not stopping.
The whole thing about police forces destroying fields seems pure propaganda to appease the foreign forces in the country. The fields are basically not controllable for the forces that are in Afghanistan now.
As far as I've understood the problem, nothing else will earn them anyway near that much money which they get from planting poppies. So, they're reluctant to change to something else.
The main problem I see is that we provide the market and "ask" for the product. They just provide and make a living out of it. If we stop to buy they'll need to change. But we're not stopping.
The whole thing about police forces destroying fields seems pure propaganda to appease the foreign forces in the country. The fields are basically not controllable for the forces that are in Afghanistan now.
The Taliban reduced opium production massively. But then we aren't allowed to talk about that.
Yup, they stored it in big warehouses and then later sold it off. If it wasn't illegal anyway, fixing the market like that would be a crime.
With enough data, any regime is bound to do something "right": terrorist wins peace prize - as he stopped planting bombs...
Why doesn't America do what it does in South America? Just ponce over there and spray it all. The locals get so much money out of the poppies they're not going to stop it.
The west needs to legalise drugs. That'd sort the problem out!
With enough data, any regime is bound to do something "right": terrorist wins peace prize - as he stopped planting bombs...
Why doesn't America do what it does in South America? Just ponce over there and spray it all. The locals get so much money out of the poppies they're not going to stop it.
The west needs to legalise drugs. That'd sort the problem out!
Originally Posted by Idaho:
The Taliban reduced opium production massively. But then we aren't allowed to talk about that.
If by "reduced" you mean widespread cultivation to fund their regime then you are correct. Selling opium and heroin to the "West" is part of the Islamocrazies war against our way of life. I suspect that if there were limits on production it was done to strengthen the Taliban's control of the opium market.The Taliban reduced opium production massively. But then we aren't allowed to talk about that.
A war against our way of life? Maybe its a drug people like to use and have been using for quite some time. The vast majority of people are scared to use it, and rightly so.
Originally Posted by Kanamori:
A war against our way of life? Maybe its a drug people like to use and have been using for quite some time. The vast majority of people are scared to use it, and rightly so.
Maybe you need to keep it in context. One of the reasons they supported and encouraged the production of opium is to have us die from it.A war against our way of life? Maybe its a drug people like to use and have been using for quite some time. The vast majority of people are scared to use it, and rightly so.
They've said that? If that was really their goal, why didn't they lace the crap out of it? I'm sure many would use it before people started to re-purify it when they got it. Heroin itself doesn't kill many people, its only when people get different purities and they're used to another one, or when it is mixed w/ dangerous stuff. And overall, I don't think that a large percent of Heroin users die due to use.
Originally Posted by Kanamori:
They've said that? If that was really their goal, why didn't they lace the crap out of it? I'm sure many would use it before people started to re-purify it when they got it. Heroin itself doesn't kill many people, its only when people get different purities and they're used to another one, or when it is mixed w/ dangerous stuff. And overall, I don't think that a large percent of Heroin users die due to use.
Think about what you just said. If people know your product is defective or dangerous will they continue to purchase it from you? As far as what “they’ve said”, they’ve said a lot of things like that and it seems that you don’t believe they’re capable of it.They've said that? If that was really their goal, why didn't they lace the crap out of it? I'm sure many would use it before people started to re-purify it when they got it. Heroin itself doesn't kill many people, its only when people get different purities and they're used to another one, or when it is mixed w/ dangerous stuff. And overall, I don't think that a large percent of Heroin users die due to use.
Officially they (the Talibs) were against opium growing, and officially they waged a war against it. In fact, I remember a Taliban website (before 2001 when the Talibs decided that the internet was bad) describing their war against drug farmers and smugglers.
I also think Mullah Omar put a fatwa on it, but I could be mistaken.
I also think Mullah Omar put a fatwa on it, but I could be mistaken.
Well, then they're doing a very poor job of killing them. I don't think they're capable of it, because it doesn't kill that many people. I think it is something like 2% of all H users die in a year, due to any cause.
Personally, I think the farmers are just after some money.
Personally, I think the farmers are just after some money.
Edit: Oh, nevermind. I thought you were referring to the Taliban. 
Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban
Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh:
Edit: Oh, nevermind. I thought you were referring to the Taliban.
Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban
Those UN teams are good at not finding certain things when dealing with despots. Especially when large sums of money are involved.Edit: Oh, nevermind. I thought you were referring to the Taliban.
Afghanistan, Opium and the Taliban
What I found most interesting about this is the 3 million Iranians that are addicts, that is HUGE.
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince:
What I found most interesting about this is the 3 million Iranians that are addicts, that is HUGE.
The Iranian PEOPLE are very much a modern, cosmopolitan society.What I found most interesting about this is the 3 million Iranians that are addicts, that is HUGE.
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince:
What I found most interesting about this is the 3 million Iranians that are addicts, that is HUGE.
Yes, it is quite sad. What I found most interesting about this is the 3 million Iranians that are addicts, that is HUGE.
Unemployment, bleak future, mullah rulers, etc. It could well be more than three million.
Originally Posted by Dâriûsh:
Yes, it is quite sad.
Unemployment, bleak future, mullah rulers, etc.
Sounds like Scotland, can we look forward to a Persian "Trainspotting" at some point?Yes, it is quite sad.
Unemployment, bleak future, mullah rulers, etc.
Originally Posted by :
Those UN teams are good at not finding certain things when dealing with despots. Especially when large sums of money are involved.
Ahhh the UN home of the Oil for Food scandal. A wonderful place in New York were corrupt politicians can get to gather with other corrupt politicians from all around the world. I seriously hope congress doesnt give in and give them the year long funding, they need to keep the reigns tight and the dogs on their heels and hopefully they'll change.Those UN teams are good at not finding certain things when dealing with despots. Especially when large sums of money are involved.
Originally Posted by :
The Iranian PEOPLE are very much a modern, cosmopolitan society.
Huh? what does that have to do with a huge number of heroin addicts in their country. The Iranian PEOPLE are very much a modern, cosmopolitan society.
Originally Posted by :
Yes, it is quite sad.
Unemployment, bleak future, mullah rulers, etc. It could well be more than three million.
Joy and soon they'll have nukes to go along with that happy culture over there. Guess I should wish Isreal goodluck with the nuclear holocuast? Maybe there's a halmark card with "Sorry your cities have been reduced to dust".Yes, it is quite sad.
Unemployment, bleak future, mullah rulers, etc. It could well be more than three million.
I'd like to see them getting an alternative cash crop.
Something less dangerous and addictive. Something nice.
There may be an opening in the "fairly harmless recreational substances" market:
link
Something less dangerous and addictive. Something nice.
There may be an opening in the "fairly harmless recreational substances" market:
link
We spent billions of dollar's on toxic defoliation substances and animals during the cold war, and I say we should put it to good use. They either need to get another crop or we need to ensure that the opium only gets to the iranian and chinese populace.
Grab the problem by it`s throat and struggle it to death, I say.
We must encourage the farmers to grow something else by providing economically support. All the money that is spent on anti-drug campaigns & alike is probably much more than what would be needed to change the farmers minds.
We must encourage the farmers to grow something else by providing economically support. All the money that is spent on anti-drug campaigns & alike is probably much more than what would be needed to change the farmers minds.
Oh, great. More subsidised crops.
So anyone that states they might grow drugs we give them more cash to grow something else.
And how long does this go on for? Until they find a way of getting money for their small farms elsewhere? I think expecting that to happen is extremely unlikely.
So anyone that states they might grow drugs we give them more cash to grow something else.
And how long does this go on for? Until they find a way of getting money for their small farms elsewhere? I think expecting that to happen is extremely unlikely.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
And how long does this go on for?
It stops after the farmer has changed (only one fee paid), or for a year, or what eva`. And how long does this go on for?
The actual country (Afghanistan in this case) must of course forbid the plant if it`s going to have any effect. It`s going to be easier to forbid the plant the fewer that grow it.
I suggest we encourage them to grow something else by considering them enemy soldiers in the war on drugs and killing them unless they start growing other products. 
Opium growing won't go away, and neither will its use. The war on drugs was almost as fruitless as waging a war on a certain type of fighting has been. They went about it all wrong anyway. You have to stop the demand if you want to stop the production, not the other way around.
Originally Posted by :
Opium growing won't go away, and neither will its use. The war on drugs was almost as fruitless as waging a war on a certain type of fighting has been. They went about it all wrong anyway. You have to stop the demand if you want to stop the production, not the other way around.
You have to do both. You must go after the supply so the drug is not so readily available. More of the drug means easier to get, easier to try, easier for more to get hooked on it. If you dont also provide programs that will help stop the demand, then just cuting the supply wont work either. Without both parts working together both will fail.Opium growing won't go away, and neither will its use. The war on drugs was almost as fruitless as waging a war on a certain type of fighting has been. They went about it all wrong anyway. You have to stop the demand if you want to stop the production, not the other way around.
And I sure hope you arnt refering to terrorism as a "certain type of fighting". Blowing yourself/yourcar up is not a type of fighting, its called murder, or in this case Terrorism.
In the first place, the war on drugs was too broad, and they targeted the most ridiculous one to spearhead. IMO, it's like going crazy and labelling caffiene consumption as evil. You are probably right, but the fact is the government should have put more into education, and not about the evils of pot or some outright lies, but in my experiences, kids in school are never taught or adequately shown how bad heroin and some of the other drugs can be; why they get so bad is the really important point. Heroin is bad, or can be, because of the same reason people do it. It makes you unconditionally feel like a god. It's very easy to lose yourself when you can do that for yourself any time. I may be building a total strawman, but I think that for one, if people understood this, a lot less people would ever go down that road, and if they did, they would have a lot more respect for how much it could go terribly wrong.
Originally Posted by Big Tex:
And I sure hope you arnt refering to terrorism as a "certain type of fighting". Blowing yourself/yourcar up is not a type of fighting, its called murder, or in this case Terrorism.
Call it what you will, but it seems patently obvious to me that one cannot destroy a mode of action.And I sure hope you arnt refering to terrorism as a "certain type of fighting". Blowing yourself/yourcar up is not a type of fighting, its called murder, or in this case Terrorism.
Originally Posted by BigTex:
And I sure hope you arnt refering to terrorism as a "certain type of fighting". Blowing yourself/yourcar up is not a type of fighting, its called murder, or in this case Terrorism.
But as long as you don't blow yourself up, while blowing up others, it's called fighting. And I sure hope you arnt refering to terrorism as a "certain type of fighting". Blowing yourself/yourcar up is not a type of fighting, its called murder, or in this case Terrorism.
You're slighty off on what defines terrorism.
Originally Posted by :
But as long as you don't blow yourself up, while blowing up others, it's called fighting.
You're slighty off on what defines terrorism.
I believe you missinterrpreted me. What i mean is glorifying what those idiot "insurgents" (no more a rebelion then organized crime) do as some type of warfare is wrong, and completely incorrect. Terrorism is not warfare and is not fighting, it is what the name implies, a criminal act thats sole purpose is to put fear into others.But as long as you don't blow yourself up, while blowing up others, it's called fighting.
You're slighty off on what defines terrorism.
Originally Posted by :
You are probably right, but the fact is the government should have put more into education, and not about the evils of pot or some outright lies, but in my experiences, kids in school are never taught or adequately shown how bad heroin and some of the other drugs can be; why they get so bad is the really important point. Heroin is bad, or can be, because of the same reason people do it. It makes you unconditionally feel like a god. It's very easy to lose yourself when you can do that for yourself any time. I may be building a total strawman, but I think that for one, if people understood this, a lot less people would ever go down that road, and if they did, they would have a lot more respect for how much it could go terribly wrong.
Completely and utterly agree. They spent to much money d**king around in columbia and not enough time/money teaching kids why heroin is bad. You need both but the heavy end of the stick should be the education of the masses. There was good reason why the C.I.A. would use LSD as a political sabotage weapon and its not because its fun.You are probably right, but the fact is the government should have put more into education, and not about the evils of pot or some outright lies, but in my experiences, kids in school are never taught or adequately shown how bad heroin and some of the other drugs can be; why they get so bad is the really important point. Heroin is bad, or can be, because of the same reason people do it. It makes you unconditionally feel like a god. It's very easy to lose yourself when you can do that for yourself any time. I may be building a total strawman, but I think that for one, if people understood this, a lot less people would ever go down that road, and if they did, they would have a lot more respect for how much it could go terribly wrong.
Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff:
Sounds like Scotland, can we look forward to a Persian "Trainspotting" at some point?
I hope so. I enjoyed that book. The metal subculture is slowly beginning to pick up in the Middle East; why not books about the drug culture which already exists?Sounds like Scotland, can we look forward to a Persian "Trainspotting" at some point?
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