Oops - I've killed the Pope

[King Kurt]

In my current early, Hard VI campaign, the purple horde that is my Bysantine forces have just toasted the Pope in about 3 years. I intended to keep him alive in a small enclave, but he got himself killed in a seige.
Judging by the note that comes up, I assume that a new, improved Pope will reappear in the new future, but I wondered what people's experience of this was - where do they pop up, how strong etc?

[rvg]

Think of it as a mini-Mongol invasion with fewer troops. He'll normally apprear in Rome and Papal lands simultaneously, with several stacks of Chiv M@A, Knights, sergeants and arbalests.

[econ21]

He turned up with around 5000 men in one mid-game PBM campaign I had. Good troop types too, as rvg says. I'm not sure if he keeps getting stronger, each new time he reappears.

But I think if you retreat and surrender the province to him, you become at peace with him. So you don't have to fight if you don't want to. (He may ultimately want to use his new found power and come for you, but you should have some breathing room before he strikes).

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah... the Byzantines sometimes cuts the Pope's throat very very quickly, usually when John Comenus pops up and they still have Naples and especially if they crush Hungary or the Turks. The Pope is so small and weak compared to Byzantinum if it is winning against its enemies that whatever the AI does to calculate who to goto war with, the Pope is usually at the top of the list of dead meat. And once John Comenus comes of age, they are unstoppbable vs another AI. It's a good idea to take the seas if you're playing the Italians so the Byzantines can't land Johny in the Papal States or if you want to Crusade.

[HopAlongBunny]

Sometimes he is very strong indeed.

Current game the Pope re-emerged in Rome, Papal, Naples, Sicily, Greece. I defeated him in Rome/Papal and the Mongols threw him out of Greece; still over 5000 in Naples and a full stack in Sicily.

It did give me my best ransom ever: 20,000 florins and change :)

edit: he appears with whatever armor/upgrades exist in the province(s)

[gaijinalways]

This is another strategy, getting ransom. If you are Catholic, though being at war with the pope will often get you attacked by the Catholic factions bordering you as well as the Pope sanctioning crusades aganist you. Tends to kill your trade as well.

[NodachiSam]

Yea his reemergences can be a big pain. I wish I could ship him off to corsica and/or sardinia and bedone with him nice and contained. This thread makes me want to play Byzantine so bad.

[HopAlongBunny]

This is another strategy, getting ransom. If you are Catholic, though being at war with the pope will often get you attacked by the Catholic factions bordering you as well as the Pope sanctioning crusades aganist you. Tends to kill your trade as well.

Aside from the papal resurgence I am the sole Catholic faction atm.

In this game there has been no trade bonanza. Its is almost 1300 and I am only now getting my fleet as far as Genoa. The war at sea has been near constant, and the appearance of 2 full stacks of Byz ships literally wiped out my early fleet.

This has been the oddest campaign I have ever fought...and I've played the game since release.

[p_nutter]

edit: he appears with whatever armor/upgrades exist in the province(s)

Which I have always found very odd...

"Hi, we're the massive faction resurgence army who will be attacking you next turn. Do you mind if we use your armoury to upgrade our equipment?"

"OK guys, go ahead"

[NodachiSam]

HopAlongBunny: What faction are you playing and are you playing vanilla? Maybe you could send a picture our way ?:)

[NodachiSam]

Oops double post. Perhaps a mod can delete this one?

[Russiantsar]

Has anyone ever seen the Pope pop up any where besides the papal states and Rome?

[NodachiSam]

He can pop up anywhere where he owned land previously. Usually just papal states and Rome. When the Pope gets aggressive he can show up in all sorts of places.

[King Kurt]

Well I have played about 6 turns and no sign of his Popeness as of yet. I am in quite a strong positition - I own all of mainland Europe except the Iberian Peninsula and Aquataine. I also own half of England and all the middle east round to Egypt. I also have at least 1 ship in every coastal sea. It is about 1180. I have also made a point of not attacking Catholic factions, only retailiating big time when attacked. My current plans are to mop up England, leaving Aquataine and the Peninsula for now. Next I will gather strong armies in key points as well as teching up some key provinces. I also intend to have some fun invading Ireland with some newly signed Vikings I recently bribed in Scandanavia - they will be led by the youngest Byzantine prince.
If the Pope pops up - I will let you know.

[Ciaran]

Six turns is too short a wait, don´t get excited. The pope will come back, and most likely at the least convenient time.

[NodachiSam]

I think his come back tour is after a decade as well it might be prompted earlier by low loyalty. He is kinda reliable like that. If you want to quickly subdue him somewhere isolated the standard operation procedure is to put small garrisons in and around his former provinces so that his return force will be smaller. Then return with large forces were you don't want him to be. You could, if you wish, leave his provinces with smaller castles so that if he should retreat he can't take much with him. Then again you might want him to go broke from a larger force. The turn he re-emerges you might feel like pillaging the land, or even do so some years before so that he won't get weapon or armour upgrades. If you want more of a challenge just role play like he's history and don't prepare.

[King Kurt]

I think I might do a bit of role play here - ruling most of the world doesn't leave many challenges - also the idea of the byzantines returning to their ancestral home of Rome appeals - I have already put a Prince in Naples as part of the Grand Return. Incidently the key part of me retaking Naples was bribing a Scilian prince called Machiavelli - who I rewarded with the governership of Naples. So Mr Pope - bring it on - let us see if you like my Varangians - they will convert you to the path of the true Roman Empire.

[ajaxfetish]

Depending on the year, you can let the Pope be your fun challenge for the rest of the game. Either don't prepare and then have to mobilize to deal with him every time he comes back, or put a one-stack, elite army in Rome and try to defeat whatever he throws at you without reinforcements every time he comes back. If you're close to end-game, though, you might just get one or two reemergences.

Ajax

[King Kurt]

As predicted above - good Ole Popey turned up about 10 years after his sad demise. he appeared in Rome and tuscany with 7 stacks mainly FMAA, militia sargents, archers, some dross and some RK. First year my garrisons made a token effort then scurried into their respective castles. Meanwhile I started gathering the Army of retribution in Naples. Next year both castles were stormed and taken - I carried on gathering armies for the counterattack. Next year the Pope's Tuscan force attacked Milian - I carried on building up. the following year I attacked all 3 provinces. Milan - Pope retreats, Tuscany - Pope retreats - the real showdown is in Rome. My army consists of Katanks, Varangians, Lancers, Byzant Infantry, Trezebond archers and Horse archers - all under a 8 star Jedi general and most troops are veterens with reasonable valour - Pope has over 3,000 troops, I have about 2,700 - result he losses 2,500, I loose about 400, Pope scuttles into Castle. Next year I storm Rome, but withdraw all my troops out of Tuscany - result Pope captured - over 11,000 florin ransom, thank you very much. So now the Pope is in Tuscany with a handfull of troops. The next year I made a small error - I invade tuscany to reduce the Pope's army to leave him with virtually no troops, intending to then leave him in tuscany with nothing so he will not come back, but he managed to get himself killed,
So in 10 years I will have to do it all again!!
As an aside, I pulled some troops out of Provence to assist with the Pope, so Aragon - "hey, I've got 1 province" - decides to attack me - "Oh look I control about 70% of the known world" - suffice to say 2 years later his portrait had disappeared from the end of turn sequence. But I am keeping up my record of only attacking catholic factions after they attack me.

[King Kurt]

Furthur update - he has reappeared again after about 5 years. I have a bit of a rebellion problem as the naval link has been broken by the Italians who are the only other naval power and have declared war on me - shouldn't be a problem in a couple of years.

[Ciaran]

A rebellious Rome increases the chances for a Pope comeback, as all provinces with a loyalty close to 100 are prone to faction re-emergence (I think I read the reemergence threshold is 120% loyalty, while ordinary rebellions don´t happen unles the loyalty is below 100%)

[Dutch_guy]

I think I read the reemergence threshold is 120% loyalty, while ordinary rebellions don´t happen unles the loyalty is below 100%

You're absolutely right on that, keep the loyalty above the 120 mark and you'll be safe from those re emerging factions

[NodachiSam]

I always thought it was 130% loyalty that prevented reemergence (Popes don't care however) Any way to confirm this?

[HopAlongBunny]

I seem to think it was 130% as well; should be a thread somewhere with all the math done.

No matter. If you are going for Total Domination. you may get a re-emergence anyhow. In a Turkish campaign I had the Egyptians appear in a 200% loyalty province somewhere around Bohemia (they had been HUGE at one point)

[Geezer57]

I seem to think it was 130% as well; should be a thread somewhere with all the math done.

No matter. If you are going for Total Domination. you may get a re-emergence anyhow. In a Turkish campaign I had the Egyptians appear in a 200% loyalty province somewhere around Bohemia (they had been HUGE at one point)

See the Numerology thread over at http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...art=21&stop=40 It covers these issues very well.

[NodachiSam]

Great link Geezer, thanks.

[King Kurt]

I am dreaming up a cunning plan to deal with my latest Pope remergance. My top priority is to remove the Italians as their ships are the cause of my rebellion problem breaking my links back to constaninople - that should take to 3 years. The Popr has just come back with about 5 stacks. I intend to do the following:
1) He has only appeared in Rome, so I will withdraw all my troops to Naples which has more troops and a strong castle except a unit of HA
2)As they withdraw, they will torch all the buildings in Rome except the Castle
3) I will personally fight the Pope's army with my unit of HA - basing my tactics on keeping the unit out of trouble until the time limit is reached - could be tricky, but I like a challenge!
4) If I loose - I withdraw to the castle
5) Following year let the pope storm the castle
6) Hopefully I have defeated - or nearly defeated the Italians by now - if I need another year, I hope to gain the time with my forces in Italy holding him off until my other troops can return from beating the Italians.
How does that sound???

[BAD]

*Currently playing a game with the Turks to see how many times I can kill the pope*

I'll let you know how it goes.

[NodachiSam]

That would be interesting. I wonder how crazy the pope can get. When he comes back from the dead he does seem to be more aggressive BTW.