Theoretical Draft

[solypsist]

i'm outta there. even if the US is invaded, I'm still leaving. this is the only life i have, and i'm not throwing it away because someone else says i need to risk it.

remember folks, "Now I want you to remember that no ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ******* die for his country." - Gen. Patton.

[solypsist]

it must be an alien concept to many that a person can have a good, fullfilling life without the need for reactionary nationalist patriotism.

liberal mindset? you should try looking into the [non-existent] service records of your conservative congressional chickenhawks.

There you have it folks. The liberal mindset at work. He even managed to take a Patton quote out of context.

[solypsist]

enjoy your theoretical war, then. i have better things to do.

dying in a war is for fools and the unfortunate. look at the list of people* who fled europe at the onset of WW2 to come to america and what they contributed to this place by doing so. i guess you're calling them disgusting, too.

That someone wouldn't join a draft even if the country were invaded is just disgusting. You don't have to be a reactionary conservative to defend your homeland.

*scientists, artists, doctors, scholars, etc.

[solypsist]

personal attack? hmmm...

Well, at least you admit you're a coward.

[Divinus Arma]

personal attack? hmmm...

Personal attack? I would call it an observation.

When war is personal to you, a war with your country is the same as a war with your family. If some values are not worth dying for, then life is not worth living. At what point do you take up arms against your oppressors? Or do you bow to slavery and domination at every turn?

I am sure that even you, Soly, would reach a point to where you would fight rather than be enslaved.

What's more, why should your neighbor fight for your liberty if you will only turn your back on him? That is what Cube is talking about. Dropping your selfish ideals and supporting something of meaning to the community a a whole.

Ya, I'm pretty disgusted with your perception of liberty. From your comments, it seems safe to assume that you take everything in this country for granted.

Just look at it this way: Would you defend your home from murderers and rapists or would you let them destroy your home and ravage your family?

If you would, then would you defend your neighbor if he cried for help? Would you want him to help you if you needed it?

These are the values that Americans share. Real Americans. And this is why your liberal elite attitude is so disgusting to so many.

Enjoy your day.


And Big John, you scare the heck out of me. Think about what you wrote man!

i'd need to know my options in the military (would i be able to be an officer, for example) and the penalties for not showing up for the draft.

What kind of leader do you think you would make with an attitude like that? It's a privilege and an HONOR to lead men for their country. A responsibility that should only be entrusted to those willing to sacrifice the most, willing to continue on when all others have given up. When everyone around you is dead, dying, or ready to surrender, the offier is the one who bears the responsibility to his country more than any other. Supposed to be the elite... not desperate for meager positional authority. With an attitude like that, your men would spot you so ****ing fast it would make your head spin. And then guess who will REALLY be in charge of your puppet self?

Man, disgusting reactions to this thread.

THIS IS WHY WE DONT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER WANT A DRAFT AGAIN. THE QUALITY OF MEN GOES INTO THE TOILET.

Glad to see at least some of you are men of honor here...

[Big_John]

have fun dying with your honor DA, what a privilege. whatever i "owe" to my country, i can certainly fulfill in better ways than taking a bullet in some far-flung land. to wit, my mind would be of better service to an army in a strategic/tactical role.. not to be modest, but being some sort of common soldier would be a waste of my talent. i guess by "officer" i meant something else, but you know what i'm talking about, i should hope.

in any case, we'll never know what sort of military leader i would make. but i can tell you that i'm pretty good at coercing the weak-minded. take that for what you will.

[Banquo's Ghost]

What kind of leader do you think you would make with an attitude like that? It's a privilege and an HONOR to lead men for their country. A responsibility that should only be entrusted to those willing to sacrifice the most, willing to continue on when all others have given up. When everyone around you is dead, dying, or ready to surrender, the offier is the one who bears the responsibility to his country more than any other. Supposed to be the elite... not desperate for meager positional authority. With an attitude like that, your men would spot you so ****ing fast it would make your head spin. And then guess who will REALLY be in charge of your puppet self?

I'm glad you made this point so eloquently to save me the trouble.

THIS IS WHY WE DONT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER WANT A DRAFT AGAIN. THE QUALITY OF MEN GOES INTO THE TOILET.

Also well said. This is why I respect the views of those who do not wish to fight, for whatever reason. Solypsist's reasons, for example, are well-argued and perfectly valid. In war, I would rather lead twenty dedicated professionals than a thousand half-hearted conscripts.

As for the above question, my options don't appear. Not surprisingly really: I served as a captain of Royal Artillery in the British Army for several years before transferring back to the Irish Defence Forces.

Since I am still registered for call-up in both countries, I guess I have to hope we never war each other again!

So I wouldn't be drafted in this scenario, I would be recalled. In detail, I would assert my right to refuse participating in a foreign adventure by the British, but would fight in her defence.

If someone threatened my Irish homeland (we're neutral, so unlikely to get involved in invading other countries) they would have to step over my cold, dead body to do it. As has happened to generations of my ancestors, of whom I am justly proud.

These questions are never simple, are they?

[Tribesman]

Volunteer , and get a nice little supply job miles away from any action , then rip off as much money as I could .
War is a dirty dangerous business , why let the arms dealers make all the money ?

[solypsist]

I am sure that even you, Soly, would reach a point to where you would fight rather than be enslaved.

well yes, i guess - i'd certainly fight to avoid being enslaved by own country by conscription.

What's more, why should your neighbor fight for your liberty if you will only turn your back on him? That is what Cube is talking about. Dropping your selfish ideals and supporting something of meaning to the community a a whole.

i never asked my "neighbor" to fight for me, nor would i expect him to. so he shouldn't expect the same. there are a lot of faulty assumptions going on in that opinion above.

Ya, I'm pretty disgusted with your perception of liberty. From your comments, it seems safe to assume that you take everything in this country for granted.

why not? i wasn't asked if i wanted to be born here (and by default expected to defend some political concept of a nation). i do take everything for granted; to consider my citizenship here anything but coincidence seems rather foolish to me. _Martyr_ pretty much got things straight in his response.

Just look at it this way: Would you defend your home from murderers and rapists or would you let them destroy your home and ravage your family?

this is not the matter at hand. please read the original post. murderers and rapists have nothing to do with a draft and a declaration of war. if the us were invaded, however, my family is fully capable of making their own decisions to stay or go and have the means to do so.

If you would, then would you defend your neighbor if he cried for help? Would you want him to help you if you needed it?

again, this has nothing to do with the draft.

These are the values that Americans share. Real Americans. And this is why your liberal elite attitude is so disgusting to so many.

[Big_John]

again, this has nothing to do with the draft.

seriously. it's like some of these people didn't even read the original post.

[Tachikaze]

The following quotes were directed specifically at soly, but I'm a "coward", too, so I thought I'd lend my responses.

When war is personal to you, a war with your country is the same as a war with your family.

A nation is just a political establishment. It's not a holy entity. People treat nationalism like a religion in the US. But, it's not divine. There was life before the US, and there will be life after it's gone.

My family is my family. My friends are my firends. My neighbors earn my respect and friendship or not. They don't get them automatically, although I may help them out of common ultruism. A man living in New Jersey means no more or less to me than a man living in Malaysia, South Africa, or Finland. The people who live in Tijuana, Mexico are closer to me geographically and I am more likely to interact with them.

Another response I might put here is to say that you draw a line at the nation and say that we are a family. Why don't you extend that to the whole world? Why stop at national borders?

If some values are not worth dying for, then life is not worth living. At what point do you take up arms against your oppressors? Or do you bow to slavery and domination at every turn?

What oppressors? The only government that has the power to restrict my rights is in Washington DC.

The only war my nation has been involved in lately the US started. The Iraqis have never even mentioned enslaving Americans, let alone lifted a finger to attack them except in defense.

It is unrealistic to imagine an army landing on the shores of the US, overrunning the shore defenses, fighting house-to-house, then establishing a repressive, totalitarian government. That sounds like 1950s Red Scare. It's a fantasy. It's more likely today that someone will set off a bomb in Disneyland.

What's more, why should your neighbor fight for your liberty if you will only turn your back on him? That is what Cube is talking about. Dropping your selfish ideals and supporting something of meaning to the community a a whole.

I have no special relationship with my neighbors. The people I am closest to outside my family and friends are the foreign students I teach. My inlaws live in Japan, and I am much more likely to want to be with them during a war than here.

Ya, I'm pretty disgusted with your perception of liberty. From your comments, it seems safe to assume that you take everything in this country for granted.

A nation doesn't give freedom; it can only take it away. I was born completely free. The only restrictions I have in my life (that aren't self-imposed) come from my employer, local police, and the US government.

Japan's society is every bit as "free" as the US, if not moreso. This is true of many European countries as well. The students who come to my school are surprised how restrictive the laws are here.

Just look at it this way: Would you defend your home from murderers and rapists or would you let them destroy your home and ravage your family?

If those were my only two choices? Defend my home.

If you would, then would you defend your neighbor if he cried for help? Would you want him to help you if you needed it?

Yes, under many circumstances.

These are the values that Americans share. Real Americans.

I don't care if I'm a real American.

On the whole, I'm more worried about my own government than any foreign one. They are a greater threat to my liberty than anyone else.

The idea of risking my life for George Bush and his corporate friends is redickyulus. If he wants us to fight a war, let him take my place in the draft.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'd probably enlist first, but I'd go and take down 10 enemies before I die (if I was in a situation that required it)

[Tachikaze]

I would go live in Japan and scout models for soly.

I would leave the US as soon as there was a strong possibility of the draft being instituted. And, indeed, Japan would be my destination.

I'm sure my answer surprises no one.

[solypsist]

we can watch the war on NHK television after the fashion shoots.

I would go live in Japan and scout models for soly.

I would leave the US as soon as there was a strong possibility of the draft being instituted. And, indeed, Japan would be my destination.

I'm sure my answer surprises no one.

[Tachikaze]

[Goofball]

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

i'm outta there. even if the US is invaded, I'm still leaving. this is the only life i have, and i'm not throwing it away because someone else says i need to risk it.

remember folks, "Now I want you to remember that no ******* ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb ******* die for his country." - Gen. Patton.

There you have it folks. The liberal mindset at work. He even managed to take a Patton quote out of context.

"Liberal mindset at work?"

Really?

I am arguably one of the most "liberal" members of the Org (at least by American standards), and I volunteered to put life and limb at risk and serve in my country's army. So I guess you're wrong on that one, aren't you?

I also notice you went on to throw around words like "coward" in some subsequent posts.

What have you ever done that gives you the right to call anybody a coward? Sure, you talk a pretty good game about "serving without hesitation," but until your money has been where your mouth says you'd be, maybe you should back off on the rhetoric a bit, eh?

[Kraxis]

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

I would agree with you, but the simple fact often isn't so clear.

You could have an immoral government, perhaps even one that started the dman war, but you could at the same time have the enemy willing to waste the civilian lives of all those who agreed as well as those who opposed the immoral government.

So would you then serve to protect against that?
See, morality comes in different sizes and compositions.

[Goofball]

I can't vote. There is no option to describe what I would do. It all depends on the war. If it was a war that I believed to be just, then I would do my duty to serve without hesitation. If it was a war that I believed to be unjust, then I would likewise do my duty and deny the immoral government that declared it the use of my services.

I would agree with you, but the simple fact often isn't so clear.

You could have an immoral government, perhaps even one that started the dman war, but you could at the same time have the enemy willing to waste the civilian lives of all those who agreed as well as those who opposed the immoral government.

So would you then serve to protect against that?
See, morality comes in different sizes and compositions.

I didn't say my choice would depend on the government. I said my choice would depend on the war.

For example, I believe the Bush administration to have acted immorally on a number of issues. But were I an American and a foreign enemy invaded and that same Bush administration drafted me, then I would willingly serve because the war itself was just, even if the government was a bunch of crooks and lowlifes.

Make sense?