Theoretical Draft

[Kraxis]

If you are not willing to protect your country then you are not willing to protect the values it stand for... Simple as that. That is of course good when those values are not wholly good.
But at the same time politics should not just be put in the backseat in terms of not serving, but also in terms of protecting people.

If I lived in a country under a despotic ruler who liked to oppress other peoples and dissenters, I would still serve if it protected my people from horrible devastation (think terrorbombing for instance). As noted the people shouldn't as a group suffer because of the regime, and I would protect against that.

Btw, I have served my constription in the Danish Royal Navy.

[doc_bean]

I'm totally against the draft, it's only justifiable if your country is being directly attacked imo. I surely wouldn't risk my life to secure mining rights for some friend of a politician who's never seen war first hand.

EDIT: this doesn't mean I wouldn't sign on voluntarily if I felt like it was something I had to do. I believe it is a decision every person has to make for him/her-self.

[Strike For The South]

As long as Im in the USMC and not the air force im good

[Viking]

I am not willing to serve a country that declares war on another country.

[Samurai Waki]

As long as we're the defender and not the oppressor... I'd consider it. Really it just depends on the nature of the war, if say we went to war with Iran over a cheese curd shortage I'd turn tail on run to Canada... or Cuba or something, however, if we went to war with South Dakota I'd grab my hunting rifle and be on the front lines before you could say 'lickety-split'.

[AntiochusIII]

Well, Soly, can you tell me if Tokyo is nice? And can you put me into your fashion show thingy?

Because I'm considering Vancouver...



What a bunch of brave souls, former soldiers, real soldiers, and aggressive, idealistic adolescents of grand oratory...

Cute. I'd be reading All Quiet On The Western Front from some hot springs while you guys fight, then.

[Big_John]

I'd be reading All Quiet On The Western Front from some hot springs while you guys fight, then.

that book is but one of the reasons i'd be on the lamb in meh-hee-co, or letting the more fervid men die in my stratagems.

[Ja'chyra]

I'd go, not to serve my country but to protect my family.

As I failed the medical for the RN when I was 16 it's all a moot point, although I do work for the MoD so I'm still doing my part as best I can.

[Kagemusha]

Well, Soly, can you tell me if Tokyo is nice? And can you put me into your fashion show thingy?

Because I'm considering Vancouver...



What a bunch of brave souls, former soldiers, real soldiers, and aggressive, idealistic adolescents of grand oratory...

Cute. I'd be reading All Quiet On The Western Front from some hot springs while you guys fight, then.

Ive read the All Quiet On the Western front and i think its a great book. But maybe we have little bit different wiew of the War. I live in a small neutral country in my case war would mean an invasion against my nation. So i cant just understand why someone would not defend himself and his fellow men homes,women and children.Even if it was futile? What is the reasoning behind that?

[Strike For The South]

What a bunch of brave souls, former soldiers, real soldiers, and aggressive, idealistic adolescents of grand oratory...

or-a-to-ry, n. [L. oratoria (sc. ars) the oratorical art.]
1) the art of public speaking in an eloquent or effective manner;
the exercise of rhetorical skill in oral discourse;
eloquence.-- Webster's Dictionary --

Why wouldnt you want to serve this eluedes me. What if it was just? Bottom line for me is if I get called Im going becuase well I guess thats the way Im wired. I dont have a good reason actually (well one that would be considered good). Ill do it becuase my country needs me end of story no bitching or complaining about it. They call I go I serve and try to make it home and one peice (Oh and win that to)

[solypsist]

I am sure that even you, Soly, would reach a point to where you would fight rather than be enslaved.

well yes, i guess - i'd certainly fight to avoid being enslaved by own country by conscription.

What's more, why should your neighbor fight for your liberty if you will only turn your back on him? That is what Cube is talking about. Dropping your selfish ideals and supporting something of meaning to the community a a whole.

i never asked my "neighbor" to fight for me, nor would i expect him to. so he shouldn't expect the same. there are a lot of faulty assumptions going on in that opinion above.

Ya, I'm pretty disgusted with your perception of liberty. From your comments, it seems safe to assume that you take everything in this country for granted.

why not? i wasn't asked if i wanted to be born here (and by default expected to defend some political concept of a nation). i do take everything for granted; to consider my citizenship here anything but coincidence seems rather foolish to me. _Martyr_ pretty much got things straight in his response.

Just look at it this way: Would you defend your home from murderers and rapists or would you let them destroy your home and ravage your family?

this is not the matter at hand. please read the original post. murderers and rapists have nothing to do with a draft and a declaration of war. if the us were invaded, however, my family is fully capable of making their own decisions to stay or go and have the means to do so.

If you would, then would you defend your neighbor if he cried for help? Would you want him to help you if you needed it?

again, this has nothing to do with the draft.

These are the values that Americans share. Real Americans. And this is why your liberal elite attitude is so disgusting to so many.

[Big_John]

again, this has nothing to do with the draft.

seriously. it's like some of these people didn't even read the original post.

[Ice]

Please guys, trying to the keep the flaming and nationalism to a min. This is not what I had in mind when I created this thread. I probably should have stated this, before hand. All I want is a "simple show of hands" on what everyone would that. That's all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well I'm at Uni and in the UK that leaves you exempt until we're really up the creek. In 2.5 years I'll be at Sandhurst anyway.

I'd serve, hell I'd do air assault if they asked, and I didn't have glasses.

[Divinus Arma]

Of course I read the original post.

I, too, have no urge to join a faceless orginzation for the purpose of violence. That would be like Rallying 'round the flag of CitiBank. So, in this, I understand the points of Soly, Big John, and several others.

So really what is it that we are being asked to defend? A bureacracy? Each other? "American" Values or any other nation's values?

Allow me to clarify my position and place it within the appropriate context:

I care first for my family. I will die and kill to protect my family.

I care secondly for my community. I am surrounded by folks who wish me prosperity and join with me in making my community safe. Firefighters, Police Officers, Doctors, even businessmen, lawyers, and politicians among many others; All of these people wish me prosperity for their own reasons. And I too have a role to play in the prosperity if others. In this effort, we share similar values in compassion, trust, and personal responsibility. These values and this effort are symbolized by our flag, and organized by our government- whom we freely choose.

So, it is not some radical blind nationalism that we who would fight follow. It is the value system of our nation, of our communities, and our countrymen. So long as the United States remains free and true to its principles, I shall fight.

Should my country lose its way and become a force for evil, then I will not fight. Not only will I not fight for it, but I would fight against it- because it is no longer my country, but a fraudulent shadow of itself.


The questions every citizen should ask, having had the privilege of being born free, is why am I free? What does it mean to me? Will my children be free?


That, gentlemen, is the inspiration of your tropps who defend your lives "mindlessly". We who have already sworn an oath to defend the constitution, have done so with the values of our nation in mind. I fight so that my family will never have to. I fight so that my children and grandchildren will be free from tyranny and oppression. And it is why our fathers before us gave their lives.

[Tachikaze]

The following quotes were directed specifically at soly, but I'm a "coward", too, so I thought I'd lend my responses.

When war is personal to you, a war with your country is the same as a war with your family.

A nation is just a political establishment. It's not a holy entity. People treat nationalism like a religion in the US. But, it's not divine. There was life before the US, and there will be life after it's gone.

My family is my family. My friends are my firends. My neighbors earn my respect and friendship or not. They don't get them automatically, although I may help them out of common ultruism. A man living in New Jersey means no more or less to me than a man living in Malaysia, South Africa, or Finland. The people who live in Tijuana, Mexico are closer to me geographically and I am more likely to interact with them.

Another response I might put here is to say that you draw a line at the nation and say that we are a family. Why don't you extend that to the whole world? Why stop at national borders?

If some values are not worth dying for, then life is not worth living. At what point do you take up arms against your oppressors? Or do you bow to slavery and domination at every turn?

What oppressors? The only government that has the power to restrict my rights is in Washington DC.

The only war my nation has been involved in lately the US started. The Iraqis have never even mentioned enslaving Americans, let alone lifted a finger to attack them except in defense.

It is unrealistic to imagine an army landing on the shores of the US, overrunning the shore defenses, fighting house-to-house, then establishing a repressive, totalitarian government. That sounds like 1950s Red Scare. It's a fantasy. It's more likely today that someone will set off a bomb in Disneyland.

What's more, why should your neighbor fight for your liberty if you will only turn your back on him? That is what Cube is talking about. Dropping your selfish ideals and supporting something of meaning to the community a a whole.

I have no special relationship with my neighbors. The people I am closest to outside my family and friends are the foreign students I teach. My inlaws live in Japan, and I am much more likely to want to be with them during a war than here.

Ya, I'm pretty disgusted with your perception of liberty. From your comments, it seems safe to assume that you take everything in this country for granted.

A nation doesn't give freedom; it can only take it away. I was born completely free. The only restrictions I have in my life (that aren't self-imposed) come from my employer, local police, and the US government.

Japan's society is every bit as "free" as the US, if not moreso. This is true of many European countries as well. The students who come to my school are surprised how restrictive the laws are here.

Just look at it this way: Would you defend your home from murderers and rapists or would you let them destroy your home and ravage your family?

If those were my only two choices? Defend my home.

If you would, then would you defend your neighbor if he cried for help? Would you want him to help you if you needed it?

Yes, under many circumstances.

These are the values that Americans share. Real Americans.

I don't care if I'm a real American.

On the whole, I'm more worried about my own government than any foreign one. They are a greater threat to my liberty than anyone else.

The idea of risking my life for George Bush and his corporate friends is redickyulus. If he wants us to fight a war, let him take my place in the draft.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'd probably enlist first, but I'd go and take down 10 enemies before I die (if I was in a situation that required it)

[Tribesman]

Some things are just a value of measuring one's character.
And it is a sad statement of character that so far 24 people have voted that they would accept the draft with no hesitation .
That is the character of a muppet .

The post said Your country has just declared war on another country.
it didn't say your country had been invaded , it didn't say your familly is going to be ravaged or killed , it didn't say your way of life had been threatened , it just said your politicians want you to fight someone else for them and they have found themselves short of the resources to do it .

Anyone who will accept that without hesitation needs their head examined .

[Ice]

I'd probably enlist first, but I'd go and take down 10 enemies before I die (if I was in a situation that required it)

Indeed.

I'm really surprised at the poll results. The vast majority would serve your country without question. I would have guessed quite the opposite.

[Tribesman]

I'm really surprised at the poll results. The vast majority would serve your country without question.
Yeah , isn't it wonderful that there are so many sheep that will follow their politicians whims without any thought

[Big_John]

Yeah , isn't it wonderful that there are so many sheep that will follow their politicians whims without any thought

moreover, it's quite easy to press a button on an internet poll. i wouldn't take the results to be indicative of reality.

it's funny that people are still trying to twist this into a question of defending one's children when the original post asks about tkaing part in an offensive war. such is the backroom, i s'pose.

[Ice]

moreover, it's quite easy to press a button on an internet poll. i wouldn't take the results to be indicative of reality.

it's funny that people are still trying to twist this into a question of defending one's children when the original post asks about tkaing part in an offensive war. such is the backroom, i s'pose.

I never said offensive. All I said was that your country declared war.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is a gross simplification and you know it. The mere presence of a draft implies that your country is up the creek with no paddle, you're the paddle. You live in your country and so do your family, losing a big war sucks big time for the loser so once you're in one you need to win it.

The question of whether you should be fighting a war goes out the window as soon as it starts, at that point the politicians need to step back, the general staff needs to step up and win as quickly as possible so that life can go back to normal.

[Big_John]

I never said offensive. All I said was that your country declared war.

fair enough. however, my point stands. those of us not jumping at the chance to be drafted are generally expressing misgivings about offensive wars. since your question is ambiguous as to that point, it's a fair concern.

the draft-ophiles counter with the accusation (tacit or explicit) that anyone who doesn't jump up to take a bullet as fast as possible is essentially trying to give their 'women and children' to the enemy savages for sacrifice to the sun god and/or sexual servitude.

such is the backroom, i s'pose.

[Samurai Waki]

Well thankfully I am the Sun god, and all I give you is rays of joy and happiness and you spit in my face and call me a rapist dog and for that I'll burn you... this summer... just you wait... your taking a nice nap in the back yard and BOOM you'll scream whenever you take a hot shower or turn over in bed. Such is my power.

[JimBob]

Offensive wars are probably not. If I were drafted to fight in a war like Iraq or Vietnam I would apply for concientous objector status. Failing that I'd take my jail time and deal with it. Plenty of time to read in there.
An offensive war like WWII I would serve because people are being opressed.
A defensive war depends entirly on context also. Is my government a dictatorship that is cruel? If that is true, and the invaders will restore freedoms, then I would likely side with the invaders.
If the rulers are mearly changing, one dictator for another, I wouldn't fight. Why should I defend Tweedle-Dee from Tweedle-Dum?
If a free nation such as the US were invaded by totalitarian powers I would fight.

Basically it comes down to my beliefs. I would have signed up for the Lincoln Battalion, I would have not gone to Vietnam.

[Kagemusha]

I'm really surprised at the poll results. The vast majority would serve your country without question.
Yeah , isn't it wonderful that there are so many sheep that will follow their politicians whims without any thought

Thats not very nice to say Tribesman. Well basically i dont pretty much have choice in the event of war broke out.I have sweared the military outh to my country,to defend it against any enemies foreign or domestic.So if i would betray that oath i could be shot as a traitor.
In case of a civil war the situation would be different becouse necessary there would not be a lawfull government.
About me being a sheep,maybe i am but there are words to describe your position on the matter also but i wont go down that road, becouse it will lead into nothing good.

[doc_bean]

Thats not very nice to say Tribesman. Well basically i dont pretty much have choice in the event of war broke out.I have sweared the military outh to my country,to defend it against any enemies foreign or domestic.So if i would betray that oath i could be shot as a traitor.

There's big difference between swearing such an oath in a neutral country such as Finland, where you'd only have to serve if you get invaded or there is a *serious* threat (say nukes aimed at you and an ultimatum to surrender), and a country such as the US, which actively starts wars for often dubious reasons (and I'm being polite here).

I'll stay by my view, drafting is immoral. In case of an emergency everyone should be *asked* to sign up. People who don't want to be in the war won't make very good soldiers imho.

I don't find the poll results all that surprising. More than half of the people in the backroom have been in the military, are in the military or want to join at some point in the future. There is a serious glorification of the military, and even war going on here.

[Kagemusha]

There's big difference between swearing such an oath in a neutral country such as Finland, where you'd only have to serve if you get invaded or there is a *serious* threat (say nukes aimed at you and an ultimatum to surrender), and a country such as the US, which actively starts wars for often dubious reasons (and I'm being polite here).

I'll stay by my view, drafting is immoral. In case of an emergency everyone should be *asked* to sign up. People who don't want to be in the war won't make very good soldiers imho.

I don't find the poll results all that surprising. More than half of the people in the backroom have been in the military, are in the military or want to join at some point in the future. There is a serious glorification of the military, and even war going on here.

You have a point there Doc Bean.But as far as i can remember Tribesman hails from Ireland that is also a neutral country.That was the reason i grabbed his argument.And also like to ad that there is a big difference between drafting and conscription.That comes from a two totally different wiews on how the Countrys military should work.

[aw89]

I am thinking about joining the army anyway so i have to go option 1,
ask me again in 3 years for a definite answer.

EDIT: I live in norway so a draft would mean an invasion as the only likely scenario.