Stalin, worse than Hitler?

[Rosacrux redux]

NONE of the peoples you list was targeted specifically for genocide. Mass deportion, probably (at least Tatars and to a point Khazaks) and the Ukrainians had the most victims in the two famines, but I think you got your definition of genocide quite wrong.

The Balts continued to thrive under Stalin - only the German cooperators were targeted (and, frankly, I would do the same to such people, too bad the Brits saved the cooperators in my own country, Greece). Poles? Bielorussians? Moldavians? Genocide? Yes, definitely you don't understand the term genocide.

Genocide is what the settlers did in the Americas
Genocide is what Chinghiz did to Hsi Hsia and parts of China
Genocide is what Timur Lenk did to parts of India and central Asia
Genocide is what the Turks did to the Armenians
Genocide is what Hitler did to the Jews and Gypsies
Genocide is what happened in Kambodia and Rwanda

An oppressive regime does not equal genocide, I fear.

[cegorach]

Yes, I definetely don't know because:

Genocide is defined in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) article 2 "as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:" Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The Convention (in article 2) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:"
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


Somehow Stalin's crimes (and other communist regimes) fit both definitions.

About the rest

Batls thrived under Stalins reign and only collaborators were targeted - you mean for example at least 150 000 Lithuanians including those killed before 1941 - so they were collaborators as well ?

And the famine in Ukraine - it was enforced famine so it does count as genocide.

Poles and polish Jews were the subject of genocide as well ( from the Nazis as well - which you forgot regarding the Poles) - it cannot count as repressions because the mere fact that you were better educated, collecting stamps, knew esperanto, were a member of illegal organisation ( illegal in S.U so EVERY organisation because EVERY was illegal from Soviet point of view as created in a different country which Poland was/ is) or fullfilled one of many other frames it all meant you were eaither killed like the POWs in Katyń or deported to die in Syberia.

Moldavians were killed because they spoke Romanian - because THEY WERE ROMANIANS before June 1940 - they were supposed to forget it so it was a repression for another form of 'illegal' resistence.

M8 people were killed because they were fighting the Nazi ( like Polish underground fighters), helping Jews or doing something else communists seen as not fair - in fact they died because they were not communists themselves, or not dedicated enough or too dedicated or anything else - the resons changed from time to time and noone was safe.

Sorry but it was GENOCIDE and people are and were judged for the same or similar crimes and it was and is called genocide !

regards Cegorach

[screwtype]

It's probably true that in practice there wasn't much to choose between Hitler and Stalin, however, let's not forget that the Allies ultimately chose to fight on Stalin's side so that says something about which party they regarded as the greater evil.

The same can be said for the Russians themselves. They could have thrown their lot in with Hitler but most of them chose to fight for Stalin against the invader, in spite of the loathing that many had for the communists.

I don't know if you're Polish, I get the impression you are and if so I can understand your dislike of the Soviets. However the fact remains that at least the Soviets allowed Poland to continue to exist as a nation after the war. Hitler had no such intention and his intentions toward the Polish people themselves was much more sinister. Bad as the Soviets might have been, I think you should probably still be thankful that it was Stalin and not Hitler who prevailed in that conflict.

[Rosacrux redux]

cegorach

I can see where you are coming from and I respect that. But, as screwtype points out, you have to take into account what Hitler's plans were had he prevailed: Poland, along with Ukraine, parts of Belorus and Russia, would be rendered into "lebensraum" for Hitler's "ubermenschen". Meaning, the whole population would be either exterminated, rendered into slaves or deported. We are talking about areas with more than 100 million inhabitants in that time, and like 70% of those would be feeding the crematoria at Buchenwald, Dachau, Auschwitz etc. etc. after the end of the war.

That was Hitler's plan for the future of your country. And as much as I am inclined to accept that Poland was royally screwed by the ungrateful allies in Yalta (as Poland was counted in "Stalin's share" despite what your people did for the cause and how much they have suffered) I am sure that today there is a Polish nation, thriving, with plenty of Poles consisting it and Poland is, once again, a part of "the free world". If Hitler won WW2, there would be no Poles and no Poland. Likewise, the Moldavians are here, they have even a country now. The Romanians, the Latvians, Lithuanians, Esthonians, Hungarians, Czech, Slovakians, Bulgarians, Chechnians, Khazaks... you name it, they are all here, they have a country, a language, a national consciousness. None of them was "genocided" (Sic!).

There was no genocide in any eastern european country conducted by Stalin. You may be anti-communist to the bone, but that doesn't change reality. And reality does not support your view. Stalin was fairly light on the eastern europeans, even those who have cooperated with the Nazis (Hungarians, Romanians, Balts etc. - possible exeption are the Tatars and Khazaks, but even they were not subjected to genocide, just deported). The post-war sufferings of your people, have absolutely nothing to do with the term genocide. Absolutely nothing. As I said before, an oppressive totalitarian regime does not constitute a genocide, get your facts straight and stop drawing numbers off your belly, like the 150.000 Lithuanians... and that's the worst you could find? Wehrmacht has killed 1.2 million people, directly or by depriving them from the means to survive - food, that is - in Greece only. More than 1.8 million were killed in Yugoslavia, either by the Nazis or their Ustaca lapdogs. 26.6 millions at the very least is the estimation for the dead in USSR. 80% of them civilians.

That's some genocide if you want to do a comparison. How does those acts compare with whatever Stalin did to your country? Of course he'd kill the insurgents, every dictator does that. But... genocide? Ferchristsake, NO!

[cegorach]

Thank you that you pointed out that I am Polish and it can affect my judgement - really great answer, but you really shouldn't inform me about the planned fate for Poland and other nations planned by Hitler, the question is what about Stalin, what didn't he plan ?

Maybe I should add something - about 6 months ago I have read how much Stalin hated Poles - it was so stron like Hitler's anti-semitism or Hitler's hatred towards the... Czechs ( !!) for example who always watched one opera where a Russian peasant leads some Polish soldiers to their doom and just after the moment they freeze to death he was leaving his thist for Polish 'blood' stopped for a moment.

He definetely was more anti-Polish than Hitler who wanted Poland as the ally against Russia ( he proposed it several times), but the Poles refused so he wanted them to die in a kind of revenge. When in 1939 the Nazis asked Stalin if he accepts an idea of Polish buffor state he refused and continued with a campaign of terror and annihilation of the Polish population in the territory he had taken. The officail policy of the SU before 1941 was 'there is no Poland, there never will, or even there never WAS - ( Orwell was really right) similar to the policy of the Russian regime in 1797 and after 1864.
The problem was that after 1941 he had to change the policy to some degree because Poland was among the Allies he wanted to cooperate with and whom help he needed. Besides it is not easy to eliminate 30 000 000 people.

See Hitler didn't eliminate the Czechs either even if he despised them from his earliest days in Vienna, Stalin didn't eliminate the Poles whom he hated so much, still bothe nations to greater ( Poles) or smaller degree were the subject of extermiantion.

Another thing Stalin hated Jews as well - although it was more based on religion than race and definetely more than 100 000 Polish Jews alone were killed by the Soviets. I can bet that if there was no Nazi Holocaust there would be a different on Red one, this time.

Another thing - some nations survived, in fact ALL of them survived genocidal policy during the 2nd WW and in fact Jews have their own state don't they ?
So I really shouldn't answer the argument that so many nations survived Soviet genocidal campaigns like Chechens or Tatars who were completely moved to die in central Asia, but thanks to some changes ( weakening of the S.U) they survived.
And Rosacrux redux I did mention Lithuanians as the example - you can add several million ( at least 7) of Ukrainians, at least 250 000 Belorussians, around 200 000 of Latvians and Estonians, 1 100 000 or more Polish citizens ( includes Jews, Ukrainnians and others) and many other people, the problem is that Stalin's genocidal policy didn't last for long ( e.g. in Poland and the Baltics for 1-2 years only) and after and during the 2nd WW he had to adjust it considering weaker power he had, disastrous consequences of the 2nd WW and simply the fact he had to consolidate his new conquests and his power in the SU alone, still the bloodtide was rising again - at least 200 000 Poes were taken after the 2nd WW and mostly never came back.

Even if Stalin was responsible for only 20 000 deaths it would be genocide if it fitted the legal definition and it DID.

I definetely shouldn't be greateful to Stalin or Hitler, I can only be greateful that they fought each other so quickly and that their cooperation ( including Gestapo and NKVD helping each other) lasted for only 2 years...

BTW First 2 years of occupation in Poland ( to 1941) were more bloody on the Soviet side of the border between both homicidal regimes, even much MORE bloody only later it was different partly because there was no Soviet zone at all.

One more thing - Baltic people, some Ukrainians and some other groups seen the Nazi as possible allies, not because they loved Hitler so much, but because they seen Stalin and communists as bloody regime, more dangerous than the Nazis, there were only few dedicated fanatics there ( not like in the Netherlands, Norway etc) among the troops wh fought the Soviets, it is unfair to judge them as the bloody maniacs from Charlemagne division or other deranged enthusiasts of black uniforms.
The problem with those eastern europeans was that they had to choose between fighting both regimes ( as Poles did) - what they couldn't do at all - or choosing one to help them - trully tragic fate, they were damned any option they could choose.
See how easily they could change side if there were Allies to help them !

And finally - Soviet deportation is not like it is understood in the western europe or civilised states at all - it is moving people like the Jews were transported, but for much longer ( long distances) and then either send them to open fields in the middle of winter to build their own camps with little food or tools and enforce the survivors to work in horrible conditions to die or if very lucky to survive the deat of Stalin or a change in foreign or internal policy. Of course educated people were the primary target exactly like with Poles under Nazi reign, but the destination was the same - death.

[Rosacrux redux]

I am afraid your pov is severely distorted by yout anti-soviet sentiments and no matter how many appeals to your sense of reason I use, it won't do a thing to take the edge of the most serious misconceptions you are throwing around. The fact that you reproduce some popular myths and urban legends (about ...personal hate of Stalin and Hitler and whatnot) speaks volumes. I have a friend who's a quite nice person overall, but he hates - without a reason, just hates with a passion - the Japanese. Well, he didn't go out to slaughter the Japanese tourists in the streets... at least up until now. I hate gerbils, I don't go out slaughtering gerbils. So, please, let's keep this serious and not go into anecdotal ground, shall we?
Or let's just agree to disagree on this, huh?

Care to provide a serious source about the numbers you are throwing around? I think they are completely irelevant and have nothing to do with reality, but I may be wrong. Serious means no nationalist, right-wing fanatic or CIA-sponsored sources. I positively know for instance that the Ukrainian famines had less than 2.5 mi. victims total. How do you come to the 7 mi. number?

[cegorach]

So if you are branding me as right wing anti-communist fanatic, thank you very much !
Especially I like term urban legend - concerning what polish buffor state, deportations to Gulag or what ?
If my judgement is clouded so it is yours m8 - but with hatered of right-wing regimes and friendly feelings of ideologies spreading 'equality', so better stop answering my posts on the ground that I am Polish so definetely I am not serious, because I am not going to say anything about Greece I would regret.

I dare say, that genocide was commited by Stalin and Hitler alike - according to the legal definition of the word something you must contradict first, if i am correct.
So what about legal part ? Shall we discuss it or is it a product of right wing zealots too ?

Besides if you are saying that Wehrmacht commited genocide in Greece - I even didn't considered the Red Army activities in eastern europe at all, besides what about POWs - Polish, Japanese, German - was it a genocide or what than.

Regards Cegorach

[Alexanderofmacedon]

It's probably true that in practice there wasn't much to choose between Hitler and Stalin, however, let's not forget that the Allies ultimately chose to fight on Stalin's side so that says something about which party they regarded as the greater evil.

The same can be said for the Russians themselves. They could have thrown their lot in with Hitler but most of them chose to fight for Stalin against the invader, in spite of the loathing that many had for the communists.

I don't know if you're Polish, I get the impression you are and if so I can understand your dislike of the Soviets. However the fact remains that at least the Soviets allowed Poland to continue to exist as a nation after the war. Hitler had no such intention and his intentions toward the Polish people themselves was much more sinister. Bad as the Soviets might have been, I think you should probably still be thankful that it was Stalin and not Hitler who prevailed in that conflict.

Nope, not Polish in the least bit, but I just saw the show on the history channel, and it seemed Stalin was as bad or worse than Hitler...

[Rosacrux redux]

An advice by my history teacher in highschool I still cherish (24 years after):
Never, by any means, take as historical fact anything you see in the soapbox.

[screwtype]

An advice by my history teacher in highschool I still cherish (24 years after):
Never, by any means, take as historical fact anything you see in the soapbox.

I was going to say that