What is your Religion: Part II

[Divinus Arma]

Since when is Superman (A recentish CARTOON) the same as God?

He is comparing God to a bedtime story. His view of God is the same as our view of Superman, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus.

How did the Universe come into being?

I'm no atheist, but I'll play anyway. An atheist views the universe as primarily the object of chance. Essentially, the view is held that initially all energy in the universe was concentrated and that a chance occurence caused this energy to interact with itself in a way that resulted in massive and total instability. The result is our big bang theory. The idea that order of any kind has formed from the chaos of this energy, is due in part to the realtionship between chaos, energy, order, and probablity.

Consider the following:

Imagine an empty space. Devoid of light, of objects, of heat or cold, of any impule whatsoever. Now consider an object of energy, a positive impule. This particle of energy can, may, may not, will, or will not act in any manner whatsoever. Will it double itslef? Can it? Will it not? Will it move or remain static? Can it? What if their are two similar particles of energy? Will they interact through attraction? Interact through negative attraction? Will they be netrual to each other? Now multiple this by infinity- an unknown quantity of energetic material in existence. This is chaos.

The difference between atheists and believers is essentially the relationship between chaos, order, and energy.

An atheist believes that this chaos, through chance alone, has interacted with itself to eventually become the current state of things. The existence of this energy is indisputable. How the energy initially came to be is irrelevant- it simply exists. This notion is furthered by scientifically solvent principles that matter cannot be destroyed- it can only alter its form.

On the other hand, someone who believes in God sees the order as evidence of God. A believer would see the relationship between chaos, order, and energy from a different perspective. The guiding principle behind this is that chaos itself is impossible. No true chaos actually exists. If true chaos existed, then that would mean that order could not exist, because the two are mutually exclusive. The question then becomes one of explaining our perception of chaos. This is where predictable chaos fills the gap for religious orderists. In essence, if chaos were to be engaged within defined limitations, then chaos itself could be made predictable. If chaos is predictable, the it is useful. Now we come to religion. Chaos can only be made predictable through purpose. By assigning intent to chaotic exchange, it can be controlled through prediction.

That is why I say, if there is purpose in one thing, then there is purpose in all things. Chaos is made predictable through purpose. This purpose is imposed by the will of God.

[Zain]

You said a lot of words, without saying a whole lot, in the sense of explaining how the Universe was created. You only mentioned a boat-load stuff about chaos, which is great. Anyway, the idea of matter not getting destroyed is great and all, but where did it all come from. It HAD to have come from somewhere.

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

You said a lot of words, without saying a whole lot, in the sense of explaining how the Universe was created. You only mentioned a boat-load stuff about chaos, which is great. Anyway, the idea of matter not getting destroyed is great and all, but where did it all come from. It HAD to have come from somewhere.

Actually, I side "a lot of words" which has a much greater meaning. Put this information into application.

It explains everything. The Lord does not act in some imaginery 4th dimension. He is a living God. His acts are thus visible for study in our lives. The evidence of His will surrounds us. The purpose behind His will is what escapes humanity.

Consider this: Close you eyes and let the world evaporate from your consciousness. Ignore the sounds, the smells, your breathing. Ignore your very mind telling you that this is stupid and what is the point.

Consider this state as the perspective of God. But the difference between you and God is that He would remain in this state for eternity, while you, a mere mortal, will perish.

Existence, our existince, is His purpose. The purpose of God's will is existence itself. We live for God's pleasure. And all religious texts offer that information.

He created the "universe" as an environment. But imagine a fish tank with no fish.

He created living this that will serve him automatically. They are pre-programmed to serve his will. Thus there is no good or evil in their actions. Their will is God's will.

Then he created humans. Unique as can be in that we have free choice. We can do the will of God or we can refuse. And it is this choice that defines not us, but the Lord.

By choosing to act as the Lord desires, we fufill his purpose. Our will reinforces his will. We are his reason for existence, and He is ours.



But what about violence, murder, senseless acts of selfishness?

That is our actions against God's will.

What about natural disasters and random accidents that cause death and mutilation?

That is the environment that God has placed us in. In order for it to exist, there must exist some chaos. We cannot exist ourselves without this environment. And God works within his creation, not outside of it.

What about Big Bang?

That is God's will. Let there be light!!!

What about evolution?

Again, the Lord works within his creation. We do not "magically appear". You are the product of living material that has existed for thousands, if not milions of years. We did not appear out of thin air. We came from genetic material that has existed for longer than recorded history.

Consider the concept of adam and eve. Before "the apple" they were unable to differentiate between good and evil. Thus they were incapable of following God's will voluntarily. An event, call it an apple or whatever you wish, occurred that transformed the human consciousness into what it is now. That event was the will of God. And it is the reason I do not believe in "Original Sin" as is presented by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. We should not be regretful of that event. We should embrace it! And thank God for giving us the gift of knowledge of Good and Evil so that we may voluntarily choose to do his will.

[Zain]

You explained yourself very well, thank you. In comment to your talk about evolution, the bible says he used the dirt from the Earth to form our bodies, and breathed in our nostrils to give us life. So, Evolution looks shaky from that prospective.

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

In comment to your talk about evolution, the bible says he used the dirt from the Earth to form our bodies, and breathed in our nostrils to give us life. So, Evolution looks shaky from that prospective.

Oh, not at all my friend. You see, since matter cannot be destroyed, only "recycled", our bodies did indeed come from the earth. Our bodies are up of substances taken directly from digested plant and animal matter. This plant and animal matter itself did not come from nothing. The plants grew from a combination of nutrients in the soil, oxygen, adn water. So, in that sense, we most certinaly come from the dirt itself.

Consider further- Evolution explains that man, through a lengthy process, came from a series of less and less capable and adaptable beings. The very bottom of this step is the creation of life itself- a single-celled being with just the right balance of properties (probably a simple early form ofplant life). This was then "injected" with the ability to govern it's own behavior in accoradance with the programmed will of God. It became the difference between dirt and, well, living dirt. It would be indistinguishable to us. What is a dead man? He is not living, but yet he is made up of material that once was alive. What is the difference between a dead man and dirt? Nothing. The cells have ceased to be self-governing. That is the only difference between life and dirt.

But God would not create a man from thin air. He works within his own creation to achieve what we see today. YOU are the direct product of that "living dirt". YOU are actually a very very old being. You were not "created" at the day of your conception. You, or what would become you, existed in living material for millions of years. We are all actually much older than ourselves.

It is a misperception when we say our age is "35" or "12". That is merely the age of your present state.

[Zain]

Interesting... There are a lot of interpretations, and that's where God comes in. He is the one who gives you the feeling of what's right. That's where induvidual belief is, and some people just don't listen.

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

Interesting... There are a lot of interpretations, and that's where God comes in. He is the one who gives you the feeling of what's right. That's where induvidual belief is, and some people just don't listen.

Well, I disagree that interpretation is where God comes in. God comes in before that. It we who do the interpreting, and many times we who do the MISinterpreting.

I do not believe that God wants to "work from behind the curtain", like the wizard of oz. Nor does he work in mysterious ways.

God wants us to find him. Through science. At that point, all knees will bend. And humanity will be changed for the better. We will still have choice, but the relevance of that choice will be real. Because now, people can act like they do not have a choice by arguing that there is in God.

Take away the mystery and we do not take away choice. We make the choice more real than ever before.

[Avicenna]

You said a lot of words, without saying a whole lot, in the sense of explaining how the Universe was created. You only mentioned a boat-load stuff about chaos, which is great. Anyway, the idea of matter not getting destroyed is great and all, but where did it all come from. It HAD to have come from somewhere.

-ZainDustin

And surely if everything has to come from somewhere so does your God. Where did he come from?

[Reenk Roink]

And surely if everything has to come from somewhere so does your God. Where did he come from?

Wasn't He always there?

[Strike For The South]

SOTHERN BAPTIST

[Kralizec]

Agnostic, with some interest in deism (why isn't that an option anyway?)

[master of the puppets]

yeah throw some deism up there, thats where i stand.

[InsaneApache]

Correct. Atheism is the same thing as Religion-less, which becomes a religion in itself

No. no and thrice no. Atheism in not a religion.

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes as atheists both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not.

link

I can understand why some people who hold superstititious beliefs cannot understand an absence of belief, as it runs counter to everything they hold sacred.

I used to be a Christian, and then I learn to think for myself.

Another rare topic that JAG and I completely agree on.

[Bar Kochba]

hassidic jew YAY!!!

[IliaDN]

Atheism.

[Zain]

And surely if everything has to come from somewhere so does your God. Where did he come from?

According to the bible God is outside of time, so there is no way for us to be able to understand it.

-ZainDustin

[Avicenna]

According to the bible God is outside of time, so there is no way for us to be able to understand it.

-ZainDustin

We can alter our perception of time as well. But how did he come into being in the first place? WHERE would he be if there was absolutely nowhere for him to even be in?

Even if he is real, why does he want people to praise him? Is he some kind of egoistic immature character who absolutely loves being in the centre of attention? He is also a totalitarian dictator: think, talk and act like he wants, or forever burn in hell. Wow, he sounds like Hitler or Stalin. People must suffer because Christ suffered: if he is that selfish, how is he in any way perfect? And why did we have to suffer before Jesus Christ came? My major point of annoyance: why must you believe in him to enter heaven? People have valid reasons for doubting in his existence. It's not as if he's shown himself to us yet. Also, how is this fair for say, Gandhi? He is virtuous and helps people at his own cost, risking his life, yet he does not believe in God. Does this mean that he went to hell for this "sin"?

[Zain]

But how did he come into being in the first place? WHERE would he be if there was absolutely nowhere for him to even be in?

That's where human comprehension pretty much ends. That's one thing I can't answer. He's God, so he was always there. And, where he resides? on his alter in Heaven.

Even if he is real, why does he want people to praise him? Is he some kind of egoistic immature character who absolutely loves being in the centre of attention? He is also a totalitarian dictator: think, talk and act like he wants, or forever burn in hell. Wow, he sounds like Hitler or Stalin.

All he wants you to accept that Jesus is his son, and to believe in him, and you will go to Heaven. Why do people think that's such a big deal? To go to eternal happiness, all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart, or you Will burn in Hell. Just a quick decision can save you from eternal pain. He wants you to do this, because he believes that if you don't do this SMALL thing, you don't deserve to go to Heaven, but he loves you, and wants you there. It's your decision on whether you join him in Heaven or not. I know I'll be there with him.

Also, how is this fair for say, Gahndhi? He is virtuous and helps people at his own cost, risking his life, yet he does not believe in God. Does this mean that he went to hell for this "sin"?

If Ghandi didn't believe in God, and Jesus, yes he is in Heaven, but not because of his sin. Only because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart, but no doubt he was a good man.

People must suffer because Christ suffered: if he is that selfish, how is he in any way perfect?

You have that all wrong. Whenever Jesus was put on the cross, all burden of sin, past, present, and future was put on him, so You don't have to be "crusified" for you sin. He was killed, so you don't have to be put through that. All you have to do is accept him, and ask forgiveness for you sin. That's it.

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

Whenever Jesus was put on the cross, all burden of sin, past, present, and future was put on him, so You don't have to be "crusified" for you sin. He was killed, so you don't have to be put through that. All you have to do is accept him, and ask forgiveness for you sin. That's it.

First of all, original sin itself is all wrong. Before adam and eve ate "the apple" they did not know the difference between good and evil. Therefore, they did not know it was evil to eat the apple. So how can God punish us for something we did not know was wrong? The "expulsion from eden" was our spiritual awakening and transformation into thinking, choosing human beings. It fits in perfectly with evolution.

Hence, no need for a messiah.



But let's assume for fun that original sin is real. How does the physical death of Jesus cancel out my "spiritual death"? So he died on the cross. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Death is an eventuallity, whether you are murdered or die peacefully. Now if Jesus went to hell for all eternity, that would be a different story. THAT would be a sacrifice.



Finally, assuming that (a) original sin is real and (b) Jesus really was God and that his physical death actually menat something, then why the heck do I need to believe it? If he made the sacrifice, then "believing" in it is pointless.


Jesus is the boogey man waiting to kill you in the closet or under the bed. He's Santa Claus in the North Pole. Superman flying throught the sky.

Worship Jesus and you are worshipping a man in the place of our one God. Christianity is pagan. The father, the son, the holy ghost = 3 gods, not one.

Granted, Christianity has done alot of good in this world, but it has also done just as much evil. And all in worship of a human being.


The teachings of Jesus show us a different path. Jesus taught us to be closer to God by simplifying everything. He told as that there are two commandments (love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.)

The beauty of Jesus was his ability to get people past all the BS bureaucracy and rules that the saducees and pharisees had attached to our worship of the Lord. His disciples, especially Paul, were brilliant in that they brought the Lord to those outside of Judaism. But they were not trying to promote Jesus as God, they were trying to bring the teachings of Jesus to a wider audience.


The sooner that we put the destructive myths of Original Sin and Jesus-as-God into the religious history books, the better off the world will be. One day, the world will all worship the one true God and this distraction from our Lord will be put to a final rest.


Oh- and one more thing. Adam is hebrew for mankind. The Torah is the old testament and was first written in hebrew. So there is no "Adam" as a single person. So "mankind" "ate" "the apple". It also says nothing about a rib bone.

Literal translation of Genesis 1:27 from Hebrew to English-
And created | God | the mankind | in His image, | In the image of | God | He created | him; | male | and female | He created | them

And there is a whole lot more where that came from.