What is your Religion: Part II

[InsaneApache]

Correct. Atheism is the same thing as Religion-less, which becomes a religion in itself

No. no and thrice no. Atheism in not a religion.

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes as atheists both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not.

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I can understand why some people who hold superstititious beliefs cannot understand an absence of belief, as it runs counter to everything they hold sacred.

I used to be a Christian, and then I learn to think for myself.

Another rare topic that JAG and I completely agree on.

[Zain]

No. no and thrice no. Atheism in not a religion.



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I can understand why some people who hold superstititious beliefs cannot understand an absence of belief, as it runs counter to everything they hold sacred.

I used to be a Christian, and then I learn to think for myself.

Another rare topic that JAG and I completely agree on.

So would you say you have faith that there is no God? BTW, there is no such thing as "use to be a Christian".

[Papewaio]

And in Romans it talks about despite being wayward the Israelites will be saved regardless...

[Zain]

And in Romans it talks about despite being wayward the Israelites will be saved regardless...

Regardless of what? Of whether they accept Jesus or not? No.. No.. this is saying that they CAN be saved, but only if they believe in Jesus Christ. The bible does not contradict itself, so John 14:6 should end this debate.

-ZainDustin

[Mongoose]

In other words, turn or burn

Why are you so certain that your faith is the only true one? All you have is faith, so does the rest of the religous world. Logically, if it's mostly only a guess, then you have almost 0 chance of going to heaven, no matter how morally you live your life.

[Cowhead418]

I am an ex-Christian and have now turned into a full-blown atheist. I was sick and tired of the story changing constantly, and people making up stories to the Christian faith to suit their beliefs. This God you believe in Zain is a very horrible being. To damn someone for eternity just because they don't believe in Him is not an example of an "all-loving God." Especially when they have all the reason in the world to not believe in Him because He has never given any evidence towards his existence.

Why should we believe what the Bible says anyway? Just because? How do we know it is not as relevant and truthful as a fairytale?

I would like Zain to answer this following argument: I definitely don't want to live forever, because eternity just seems too much for me. However, I would like to live longer than we are allowed. I believe that there is no afterlife, no God, no Heaven, no Hell, just complete oblivion after death. In fact, I also believe Heaven is no better than Hell. My reasoning is this: In life, you cannot experience the highs without the lows. Why does that shower at the end of the day feel so good, why do students love Summer Vacation, why does eating, sleeping, and drinking feel good to us? It is because of the negatives such as hunger, thirst, fatigue, homework, etc. Imagine a life where nothing ever bad happened to you, it would be awful. Eating, drinking, sleeping, friendships would be meaningless because you wouldn't feel hunger, thirst, fatigue, or sadness. There are many other examples of this of course. In Heaven, there is no low, no negatives, correct? In Hell, there is no high, no positives. They are the two extremes, and I would hate to be in either one. Heaven would be great at first, sure, but it would become incredibly dull, and without conflict and negatives to balance out the extreme positives, everything we would do for happiness would become utterly meaningless. However, if Heaven did have the proper balance of highs and lows, then it would cease to be Heaven because in a "paradise" you can't have anything bad happen to you. So in my view, Heaven would be a terrible place and I would rather have complete oblivion after death. What do you have to say about this?

PS: What really started to turn me away from my belief was my CCD teacher telling me that Catholics believe your soul stays with your body after death until Judgment Day, where the decision for each soul to go to Heaven or Hell is made. I had never heard that before and believed it to be utter crap. This God seems like an egotistical, arrogant, heartless bastard to me, and I wish to be no part of Him.

[Zain]

I am an ex-Christian and have now turned into a full-blown atheist. I was sick and tired of the story changing constantly, and people making up stories to the Christian faith to suit their beliefs. This God you believe in Zain is a very horrible being. To damn someone for eternity just because they don't believe in Him is not an example of an "all-loving God." Especially when they have all the reason in the world to not believe in Him because He has never given any evidence towards his existence.

Why should we believe what the Bible says anyway? Just because? How do we know it is not as relevant and truthful as a fairytale?

I would like Zain to answer this following argument: I definitely don't want to live forever, because eternity just seems too much for me. However, I would like to live longer than we are allowed. I believe that there is no afterlife, no God, no Heaven, no Hell, just complete oblivion after death. In fact, I also believe Heaven is no better than Hell. My reasoning is this: In life, you cannot experience the highs without the lows. Why does that shower at the end of the day feel so good, why do students love Summer Vacation, why does eating, sleeping, and drinking feel good to us? It is because of the negatives such as hunger, thirst, fatigue, homework, etc. Imagine a life where nothing ever bad happened to you, it would be awful. Eating, drinking, sleeping, friendships would be meaningless because you wouldn't feel hunger, thirst, fatigue, or sadness. There are many other examples of this of course. In Heaven, there is no low, no negatives, correct? In Hell, there is no high, no positives. They are the two extremes, and I would hate to be in either one. Heaven would be great at first, sure, but it would become incredibly dull, and without conflict and negatives to balance out the extreme positives, everything we would do for happiness would become utterly meaningless. However, if Heaven did have the proper balance of highs and lows, then it would cease to be Heaven because in a "paradise" you can't have anything bad happen to you. So in my view, Heaven would be a terrible place and I would rather have complete oblivion after death. What do you have to say about this?

PS: What really started to turn me away from my belief was my CCD teacher telling me that Catholics believe your soul stays with your body after death until Judgment Day, where the decision for each soul to go to Heaven or Hell is made. I had never heard that before and believed it to be utter crap. This God seems like an egotistical, arrogant, heartless bastard to me, and I wish to be no part of Him.

Honestly, I'm very tired of talking about this now (after days and days) but I'll try my best.

I believe that you are interpreting Heaven to be utterly boring, correct? Well then, I'll have to agree with you that no lows would get boring. But, we really don't know how it's going to be, so I look forward to it.

That thing about the Catholics is nothing but misinterpretation. Don't believe it, that's utterly retarted, if you ask me.

Why should God let people that don't believe in him into his "house"?

-ZainDustin

[Banquo's Ghost]

PS: What really started to turn me away from my belief was my CCD teacher telling me that Catholics believe your soul stays with your body after death until Judgment Day, where the decision for each soul to go to Heaven or Hell is made. I had never heard that before and believed it to be utter crap.

Just for information, your teacher was utterly wrong, or as is often the case, antagonistic towars the Roman church. Catholics believe no such thing.

Interestingly, the Catholic faith (which has a fairly powerful internal consistency having been interpreted by some of the finest philosophical minds of the mediaeval period) includes a much more palatable idea to the afterlife - Purgatory.

Catholics believe that very few people live lives that qualify them for Heaven - only the saints go direct. Equally, very few people live lives that deserve the horrors of Hell (Southern Baptists mainly ). Almost everyone goes to Purgatory when they die, which is a place of cleansing - where the soul understands the clarity of every action they took in life and how it affected those around them. Unlike in life, the soul cannot lie to itself about its sin - every hurtful fact and its result is revealed in the light of God's truth.

Time of course, has no real meaning there, but the soul can then begin its journey of purgation, of reconciliation with God. Very serious sins take a very long 'time', whereas a decent but flawed person can achieve entry into Heaven quite quickly.

The Catholic position is that just being baptised does not guarantee Heaven. You have to earn it. Even the worst sinner can be redeemed, it just takes an awful long time. After 1500 years of this view, the Protestant churches decided on the idea of the Elect, ie believe and you are saved. One of the drawbacks of letting people read the Bible in their own language is they get all sorts of weird ideas!

Some theologians have postulated that Purgatory may be earth itself, in other words a second chance in the flawed world to do good - similar to reincarnation - and that the miseries we see are actually there to encourage us sinners to expiate our sins through good works - though this is by no means official doctrine which states that Purgatory is a separate spiritual realm.

Of course, one of the drivers for the Reformation was the Roman Catholic Church's very smart business decision that as prayer was said to help souls move through Purgatory, you could sell ready made 'indulgences' ie pre-paid tickets through the nastier bits. Kind of a first class trip through repentance.

Neat idea, very good for the patronage of the arts, but the purists decided this was ungodly and set up their own churches - and banned stuff like dancing and beer.

But as an explanation for a loving God who also metes out punishments, Purgatory seems to me very consistent. I am drawn to the idea that one can pray for one's loved ones, as well as the friendless, and speed their journey towards happiness. The more people who think kindly of you, the quicker you achieve paradise, which is rather symmetrical and worthy of an omnipotent Being.

[Zain]

In other words, turn or burn

Why are you so certain that your faith is the only true one? All you have is faith, so does the rest of the religous world. Logically, if it's mostly only a guess, then you have almost 0 chance of going to heaven, no matter how morally you live your life.

You don't get into Heaven by works, only faith.

What I believe is based on the Christian bible. If it's a bunch of made up stories (which I Highly doubt) then I do'nt know what will happen. I'll have to say that if God doesn't exist, then neither does Heaven. Do you agree?

[Mongoose]

You don't get into Heaven by works, only faith.

What I believe is based on the Christian bible. If it's a bunch of made up stories (which I Highly doubt) then I do'nt know what will happen. I'll have to say that if God doesn't exist, then neither does Heaven. Do you agree?

What I'm saying is that if there are 100s of different stories, and all of them are obviuosly metaphor, then there's an equal chance of one being right VS anyother. Can you see why it's foolish to assume that you've found the true one and that everyone else is going to hell?

It would make the most sense to just ive as morally as you can and just hope that the real God will respect that.

I find it likely that if God exists, he's neither the God Christian nor any other of the the versions that humans have pulled out of the air.

[Divinus Arma]

So would you say you have faith that there is no God? BTW, there is no such thing as "use to be a Christian".

Disagreed. I failed to mention that I, too, "used to be a christian".

I was about 18 or 19. I succumbed to the power of the modern christian message. I truly believed. And I was horrified by the billions that would perish in hell. It was heartbreaking... I can't express how painful that revelation was.

It was all so clear to me then.... The foolish pride of the saducees and pharisees, the pride of modern men, my own pride.

I remember walking for miles after "accepting Christ". I walked from 10am until 10pm that day. From one city to another, and on to a third. Just thinking. (I was a heavy backpacker as a teenager, so 12 hours of walking was nothing to me then). I felt enlightened. Like a burden had been lifted. I felt free. But I also felt enormous sadness from the price that humanity would pay.


So yes. I "used to be a Christian" too. And I wasn't even raised Christian at all.


Now my belief in a singular God is only stronger, and my resentment for arrogant religion has only grown. Any religion that affrims itself as the only way is a plague. An evil. A force for destruction. Despicable. Arrogant, self-serving, controlling, greedy, and power-mongering.

There is nothing wrong with organized worship in any religion. But there is everything wrong with organized evangelicalism- regardless of the religion.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Now my belief in a singular God is only stronger, and my resentment for arrogant religion has only grown. Any religion that affrims itself as the only way is a plague. An evil. A force for destruction. Despicable. Arrogant, self-serving, controlling, greedy, and power-mongering.

There is nothing wrong with organized worship in any religion. But there is everything wrong with organized evangelicalism- regardless of the religion.

Wise, wise words.

Zain, your arguments leave me cold. I don't propose to debate you, since reasoned debate is wasted on a zealot. Your arguments only drive me further away from your faith. Your god is one that I reject utterly, for the reason so eloquently expressed in 'The Brothers Karamazov' (which, by the way, is an excellent and thought-provoking read for any religious person):

"I cannot believe in a god that would permit the suffering of a single child."

As I wrote before, I would hate to spend eternity in the Heaven that you desire. It would be packed with insufferable people full of certainty and devoid of compassion. No doubt the madmen that blow themselves up along with women and children in the hope of heaven and innumerable virgins would be right alongside everyone else who believes so unshakeably that their way is the only way. Why you people think your revealed truth is the only one, when even your own Christianity is riven with different sects, let alone other myths and belief systems, is beyond me.

The most sensible philosophy of heaven and hell (should such places exist) was expressed to me in a Chinese parable (paraphrased for the Christian paradigm):

A man died and went to Judgement. He was surprised to find that instead of a big courtroom with a vengeful God, he was met by Saint Peter. The saint smiled. 'Welcome to heaven, for you have been a kind and generous man.' He led the man to a wonderful place, full of birdsong and warm sun. Spread before him in the sunlit fields were great tables full of extraordinary foods, sweets, fruit and wines of every vintage. The many people sat around the tables were laughing and singing, the very eptiome of happiness.

'The only rule in Heaven is that you may only use the spoons to eat,' said Peter. The man noticed that these spoons were two metres in length, which was odd, but everyone was using them to feed each other, so it didn't matter.

The man thanked the saint, but was curious. 'I have always wondered why our loving God made Hell,' he said. 'May I see what it is like for the poor souls?'

Saint Peter smiled and nodded. They walked a way, until they came to another land, exactly the same as the first - warm and pleasant. The same tables groaned under good things. But the people there were emaciated and scabrous, their bones showing through shrunken flesh. They had miserable, glaring eyes, reddened with frustrated weeping. They could see the marvellous treats, but beyond their reach.

Seeing the man's furrowed brow, Peter pointed out the spoons, each held tightly in a person's hand. A few angry souls were still trying to lift food into their own mouths and failing because of the long handles. They glared and berated their neighbours. They swore and cursed God.

'The rule here,' said Peter sadly, 'is exactly the same as in Heaven.' The man nodded and they returned to the place where people helped each other, instead of themselves.

[GoreBag]

I like that story. Unfortunately, not all things in the world are two-metre spoons. You'd think someone would just jam their face in the food..

One might say that I'm missing the point, but I intend this answer to be as much a metaphor as the parabole.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I like that story. Unfortunately, not all things in the world are two-metre spoons. You'd think someone would just jam their face in the food..

One might say that I'm missing the point, but I intend this answer to be as much a metaphor as the parabole.

The two-metre spoon is as arbitrary as anything else these gods have done and dozy rules seem to be the fare of organized religions. As is mankind's desire to get around the rules, so I would say you're making the point really well!

If I am attracted to any religious notions, it is the pantheistic pagan 'spirits of nature' type approach - such as the Greek pantheon - where the gods take sides, shaft their favourites, gamble with people's hopes and lives, are as venial as their creation and seem to only be interested in sex with naiads and other people's husbands/wives.

Truly then, could men be said to be made in the gods' images and it fits the observed facts way better.

[InsaneApache]

So would you say you have faith that there is no God? BTW, there is no such thing as "use to be a Christian".

No. Faith is a blind acceptance of the supernatural. I have a certainty.

Why can't I be an ex-christian?

[R'as al Ghul]

No. Faith is a blind acceptance of the supernatural. I have a certainty.

Do you mean you're certain that there's no God? How?
I call myself agnostic because I don't belief but can't be certain about a nonexistence.

[InsaneApache]

Do you mean you're certain that there's no God? How?
I call myself agnostic because I don't belief but can't be certain about a nonexistence.

Which God do you suggest I can't be certain about?

Baal.

Zeus.

Thor.

Yahweh.

Horus.

Saturn.

Need I go on?

[R'as al Ghul]

A multitude of gods doesn't give me certainty about the nonexistence of any of them. Neither can I be sure that any of them exists. As far as I know all of them could exist at the same time.
I basically share your opinion, though. In the other thread about this topic I stated that: "I believe that humans created gods and not the other way round". Maybe some of those old gods died because people stopped to believe in them?

What I can't say is that I'm certain about any gods nonexistence.
I suspect that they don't exist, but how can we/you be certain?

[mystic brew]

well, you can't be certain of a negative. the only evidence can be lack of evidence.... etc.

But just as those who believe in god 'know with certainty' there is a god/s, i think those who don't believe must be allowed to say the same.

As long as neither says they can prove it!

[mystic brew]

A multitude of gods doesn't give me certainty about the nonexistence of any of them. Neither can I be sure that any of them exists. As far as I know all of them could exist at the same time.
I basically share your opinion, though. In the other thread about this topic I stated that: "I believe that humans created gods and not the other way round". Maybe some of those old gods died because people stopped to believe in them?

What I can't say is that I'm certain about any gods nonexistence.
I suspect that they don't exist, but how can we/you be certain?

so are you saying that it's impossible to prove the existence of god? (honest enquiry here, not trying to bait!)