What is your Religion: Part II

[_Martyr_]

Who created God?

[Zain]

Dont take this the wrong way but, were you born into a (I would say Fundamental) Christian family that hold the same beliefs as you? And also, how old are you?

Yes, I was born in a Christian Family, and my age is irrelavant. I am old enough to know how to think for myself and rule out the stupid answers.

[_Martyr_]

Well, then you didnt really choose to become a Christian as such. You were born into the belief system. The age question was only to judge if you had a huge amount of life experience away from your family's influence which would give you a more balanced view on things.

[Zain]

I understand all that. I am 14. But, I have done more research about this kind of thing then most. Why would I be arguing with people on a Forum if I didn't believe beyond how I was raised? I have looked at all the alternatives, and I CHOSE to be a Christian. I wasn't born that way. Plus, I'd rather be a Christian, and have something to look forward to after death. Instead of an Atheist that has nothing to look forward to but death and silence.

[_Martyr_]

All I'll say is that lots of things change as you get older. Things I held for certain at 14, such as the lack of a God, have become less clear as Ive got a bit older. And Im only 20. Who knows what Ill believe in another few years with a bit more experience of the world, and the same goes for you.

[Zain]

Possibly. But I am stubborn, and most of the time only I can change my mind. That's why I'm good at debating with people.

[lancelot]

I understand all that. I am 14. But, I have done more research about this kind of thing then most. Why would I be arguing with people on a Forum if I didn't believe beyond how I was raised? I have looked at all the alternatives, and I CHOSE to be a Christian. I wasn't born that way. Plus, I'd rather be a Christian, and have something to look forward to after death. Instead of an Atheist that has nothing to look forward to but death and silence.

As you say, you are 14. Can you (at that age) really be sure of anything? There are monks who spend their whole lives pondering such things and yet to come to an answer.

Is the 'something you look forward to' after death just a way of your mind coping with the idea of mortality?

Im not trying to denegrate your faith, Im genuinely interested in the motivations of religious belief but as an atheist I feel the need to explore the religious.

[Zain]

My motivations as a Christian is to please my God, be a good influence on others as to lead them to God, and to go to Heaven when I die. I want to see Jesus with my own two eyes, face to face, in Heaven. And witness God's glory first hand.

[InsaneApache]

an Atheist that has nothing to look forward to but death and silence.

A common misconception. We atheists have everything to look forward to.

Life.

I don't live my life on some ephemeral promise of a reward on another plane. I live my life to the full. In the certainty that this is it. No second chances, no afterlife, no redemption, just the opportunity to receive and give love with my kith and kin.

[Divinus Arma]

Ever heard of circular reasoning?

here is an example:

Write on a piece of paper the following:

"This piece of paper is the truth."

Now say the following:

"The piece of paper is the truth because it says so."


That is circular reasoning in the simplest of examples. Sound biblical?

Christians will always deny outside evidence that contradicts with the bible by saying:

"The piece of paper is true because it says so."

Or in other words:

"The bible is true because it says so".


Referring to the bible in a factual argument only destroys the credibility of your argument.

But then again, WTF do any of us really know? Maybe the piece of paper is true.

I prefer to give the Lord alot more credit then that, though. Why would He create the world with "a starting age" when He could create it from scratch and watch it grow? Which is more fun: Raising a child to adulthood and influencing its development, or creating an adult "clone"-type of being that automitaclly is preprogrammed. Existence is the child of God. And He is enjoying raising his creation from infancy.

[mystic brew]

Plus, I'd rather be a Christian, and have something to look forward to after death. Instead of an Atheist that has nothing to look forward to but death and silence.

whether it's an appealing idea has nothing to do with whether you believe in anything or not. sure, the idea of heaven is quite nice, but that don't make it any more credible to non-believers.

[IrishMike]

Just look it at this way. If i'm right there is a heaven, then its all good and I played the chances right. If not, i'm not gonna be around to regret it. But all in the end I think its just about living a good life, and that humanity has missed that point. We get way to hung up on what each other believes and all this talk about the bible and missed the living well and good part.

[Papewaio]

Genes and memes...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Instead of an Atheist that has nothing to look forward to but death and silence.

For myself, death and silence would be a fine end to a life well-lived. I can't imagine what eternal life would be like except dull. Certainly oblivion is preferable to eternity in the company of the 'Elect' that I have met.

Unless, of course, there was to be endless repetition of Allegri's Miserere, sung in the Sistine Chapel or Merton College - perhaps the piece of music that I would accept as the voice of God. I'd be willing to bet that wouldn't be your idea of heaven though!

Zain, since you like to be well-read and informed, try reading 'The Myth of Sisyphus' by Albert Camus for one philosophical viewpoint on why atheism can be very fulfilling.

[Redleg]

But you are missing the point... The bible says God created the first human 6500 years ago. There are MANY examples of human remains that are MUCH older than this date. God couldnt have put HUMANS on earth to get it all nicely ready for the first HUMANS to arive. Plus, the bible gives a detailed day by day account of when he created pretty much everthing, it was done over a week, no? So is the Bible wrong on this matter?

Correction - the bible states no such thing - Man has interpated the Old Testiment to mean 6500 years.

[Ja'chyra]

Mucho funnyness

Ok, I believe there could be a God but no way does he bear much relation to what any religion says he does. Let's face it, they can't all be right.

Zain

If you think you've done more research then most people then you haven't been on these forums for very long. I would say that at 14 it's easy to feel that you know everything, but give yourslef 5 years and you won't be so definite, trust me I'm a doctor, well I'm not really but Rory is

[Cronos Impera]

Paganism is different than Heathenism.
Paganism means you worship the gods of the old pantheon ( Dacian, Geraman etc.) while Heathenism is a represented by the Wicca comunities and other witchcraft crap.
I'm a pagan. I worship Zalmoxis and charge with a smile into everything, including my bathroom.

Anyway, I don't think there is a Supreme Creator. First there was chaos, then Gaia, Tartarus and Erebus. Then Cronos, Thetis, Oceanus, Iapetus, Hyperion and all the titans. After that there ware the Olympian Gods.
[B]The Christian God may just be Zeus' unborn child[B]

The Bible imports many of It's episodes from the sumerians, pheonicians and mostly from the Egyptians and thus can't be read mot-a-mot( word-by-word).
The Flood first appears on the Tartaria tablets, then later in The Epic of Gilgamesh and Greek Mythology. Even the aztecs had a flood.
Immortality of the soul and rebirth ( again nothing new, Zalmoxis preached to the dacians about immortality long before Jesus was born).

[doc_bean]

The Flood first appears on the Tartaria tablets, then later in The Epic of Gilgamesh and Greek Mythology. Even the aztecs had a flood..

Seeing as how many different religions (and possibly other ancient texts) mention it, it is likely that a great flood did actually happen. Some people claim the Sphinx shows marks caused by the flood, but this isn't really accepted in the Egyptology community afaik.

I always loved how one of my old teachers explained Genesis: the Jews were slaves of the Babylonians, and as many oppressed people, stated losing touch with their own culture. To show the power of the One true God the priests told the people of how God created the universe. Now the babylonians also had a creation myth of course: it was a complicated story about slaying eachother and making worlds from the bones of the fallen. Jehova just had to say a word to create the universe.
So really, all that Genesis is, is a story about how my God can beat up your God

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Christianity.

[Viking]

From the other thread:

Absolutely... you are taking the 'hard' agnostic position here. which is to say that you believe that god can't be proved to exist one way or t'other.

No, I have no belief about religion. By logic, it is impossible to prove that God doesn`t exist. I don`t know if it is possible to prove that he exist; I am not sure about that.

But no scientific evidence has yet been shown to me, so my stance is neutral.

[Avicenna]

According to the bible God is outside of time, so there is no way for us to be able to understand it.

-ZainDustin

We can alter our perception of time as well. But how did he come into being in the first place? WHERE would he be if there was absolutely nowhere for him to even be in?

Even if he is real, why does he want people to praise him? Is he some kind of egoistic immature character who absolutely loves being in the centre of attention? He is also a totalitarian dictator: think, talk and act like he wants, or forever burn in hell. Wow, he sounds like Hitler or Stalin. People must suffer because Christ suffered: if he is that selfish, how is he in any way perfect? And why did we have to suffer before Jesus Christ came? My major point of annoyance: why must you believe in him to enter heaven? People have valid reasons for doubting in his existence. It's not as if he's shown himself to us yet. Also, how is this fair for say, Gandhi? He is virtuous and helps people at his own cost, risking his life, yet he does not believe in God. Does this mean that he went to hell for this "sin"?

[mystic brew]

From the other thread:
No, I have no belief about religion. By logic, it is impossible to prove that God doesn`t exist. I don`t know if it is possible to prove that he exist; I am not sure about that.

But no scientific evidence has yet been shown to me, so my stance is neutral.

ok, soft agnostic position then! sorry, i thought your first post was saying that you believed it was impossible to prove one way or the other, and so you refused to take a position on principle.

[Zain]

But how did he come into being in the first place? WHERE would he be if there was absolutely nowhere for him to even be in?

That's where human comprehension pretty much ends. That's one thing I can't answer. He's God, so he was always there. And, where he resides? on his alter in Heaven.

Even if he is real, why does he want people to praise him? Is he some kind of egoistic immature character who absolutely loves being in the centre of attention? He is also a totalitarian dictator: think, talk and act like he wants, or forever burn in hell. Wow, he sounds like Hitler or Stalin.

All he wants you to accept that Jesus is his son, and to believe in him, and you will go to Heaven. Why do people think that's such a big deal? To go to eternal happiness, all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart, or you Will burn in Hell. Just a quick decision can save you from eternal pain. He wants you to do this, because he believes that if you don't do this SMALL thing, you don't deserve to go to Heaven, but he loves you, and wants you there. It's your decision on whether you join him in Heaven or not. I know I'll be there with him.

Also, how is this fair for say, Gahndhi? He is virtuous and helps people at his own cost, risking his life, yet he does not believe in God. Does this mean that he went to hell for this "sin"?

If Ghandi didn't believe in God, and Jesus, yes he is in Heaven, but not because of his sin. Only because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart, but no doubt he was a good man.

People must suffer because Christ suffered: if he is that selfish, how is he in any way perfect?

You have that all wrong. Whenever Jesus was put on the cross, all burden of sin, past, present, and future was put on him, so You don't have to be "crusified" for you sin. He was killed, so you don't have to be put through that. All you have to do is accept him, and ask forgiveness for you sin. That's it.

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

Whenever Jesus was put on the cross, all burden of sin, past, present, and future was put on him, so You don't have to be "crusified" for you sin. He was killed, so you don't have to be put through that. All you have to do is accept him, and ask forgiveness for you sin. That's it.

First of all, original sin itself is all wrong. Before adam and eve ate "the apple" they did not know the difference between good and evil. Therefore, they did not know it was evil to eat the apple. So how can God punish us for something we did not know was wrong? The "expulsion from eden" was our spiritual awakening and transformation into thinking, choosing human beings. It fits in perfectly with evolution.

Hence, no need for a messiah.



But let's assume for fun that original sin is real. How does the physical death of Jesus cancel out my "spiritual death"? So he died on the cross. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Death is an eventuallity, whether you are murdered or die peacefully. Now if Jesus went to hell for all eternity, that would be a different story. THAT would be a sacrifice.



Finally, assuming that (a) original sin is real and (b) Jesus really was God and that his physical death actually menat something, then why the heck do I need to believe it? If he made the sacrifice, then "believing" in it is pointless.


Jesus is the boogey man waiting to kill you in the closet or under the bed. He's Santa Claus in the North Pole. Superman flying throught the sky.

Worship Jesus and you are worshipping a man in the place of our one God. Christianity is pagan. The father, the son, the holy ghost = 3 gods, not one.

Granted, Christianity has done alot of good in this world, but it has also done just as much evil. And all in worship of a human being.


The teachings of Jesus show us a different path. Jesus taught us to be closer to God by simplifying everything. He told as that there are two commandments (love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.)

The beauty of Jesus was his ability to get people past all the BS bureaucracy and rules that the saducees and pharisees had attached to our worship of the Lord. His disciples, especially Paul, were brilliant in that they brought the Lord to those outside of Judaism. But they were not trying to promote Jesus as God, they were trying to bring the teachings of Jesus to a wider audience.


The sooner that we put the destructive myths of Original Sin and Jesus-as-God into the religious history books, the better off the world will be. One day, the world will all worship the one true God and this distraction from our Lord will be put to a final rest.


Oh- and one more thing. Adam is hebrew for mankind. The Torah is the old testament and was first written in hebrew. So there is no "Adam" as a single person. So "mankind" "ate" "the apple". It also says nothing about a rib bone.

Literal translation of Genesis 1:27 from Hebrew to English-
And created | God | the mankind | in His image, | In the image of | God | He created | him; | male | and female | He created | them

And there is a whole lot more where that came from.

[Strike For The South]

First of all, original sin itself is all wrong. Before adam and eve ate "the apple" they did not know the difference between good and evil. Therefore, they did not know it was evil to eat the apple. So how can God punish us for something we did not know was wrong? The "expulsion from eden" was our spiritual awakening and transformation into thinking, choosing human beings. It fits in perfectly with evolution.

This is not true. As a baptist I dont belive in orginnal sin anyway but saying this is a fallacy.God TOLD them not to eat the apple it says so right there in the book and yet there were led into temtation like all of us have been.

[InsaneApache]

If Ghandi didn't believe in God, and Jesus, yes he is in Heaven, but not because of his sin. Only because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart, but no doubt he was a good man.

Now you're making it up as you go along.

The Bible says that nobody is good enough to get into heaven. Each one of us has broken God's commandments--not one person is excepted. You have personally lied and committed other sins.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

[L]et God be true, but every man a liar...( Romans 3:4)

I don't care how much "good" stuff you do, you still can't go to heaven. You are dead in tresspasses and sins. Your good deeds do not commend you to God in any way. You've ignored Him chosing to live life the way YOU see fit.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

So Gandhi doesn't get the keys then.

All he wants you to accept that Jesus is his son, and to believe in him, and you will go to Heaven. Why do people think that's such a big deal? To go to eternal happiness, all you have to do is ask Jesus into your heart, or you Will burn in Hell. Just a quick decision can save you from eternal pain. He wants you to do this, because he believes that if you don't do this SMALL thing, you don't deserve to go to Heaven, but he loves you, and wants you there. It's your decision on whether you join him in Heaven or not. I know I'll be there with him.

Little thing called evidence. If we followed the route of just believing, then there would be no need for courts, as evidence would be superfluous.

I'd rather Yahweh did'n't love me, if I have to kneel before him in subservience. That's not what I call love.

[Reenk Roink]

Now you're making it up as you go along.

I think ZainDustin meant to say hell...could be wrong, but could be right...

[Viking]

ok, soft agnostic position then!

Probably correct.

I don`t have any believes when it comes to religion, so agnosticism just doesn`t entirely fit my view.

[Zain]

If Ghandi didn't believe in God, and Jesus, yes he is in Heaven, but not because of his sin. Only because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart, but no doubt he was a good man.

Now you're making it up as you go along.

I'm SO sorry. That was a huge typo. I'm sorry, I had been typing a whole lot that day, and I was tired from working some with my dad. It should read like this...

If Ghandi didn't believe in God, and Jesus, yes he is in Hell, but not because of his sin. Only because he didn't accept Jesus into his heart, but no doubt he was a good man.

Sorry about that.

[Zain]

This is not true. As a baptist I dont belive in orginnal sin anyway but saying this is a fallacy.God TOLD them not to eat the apple it says so right there in the book and yet there were led into temtation like all of us have been.

That is ABSOLUTELY correct Strike for the South. You are wrong Divinus Arma