The creation of the Universe.

[Zain]

Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.

I believe that God created it, but some Atheists and Scientists will say Big Bang and stuff, so bring it on.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Big bang and God are not incompatible -- plenty of Christians believe in it. The correct word for people who prefer the literal scripture to scienfic evidence is "fundamentalist," not "Christian."

[Zain]

Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Zain, if you're going to get all fundamentalist, please read all of Moses' laws, which are laid out very clearly as the direct commandments of God. Have you hugged your mother while she was menstruating? Then you are unclean, and if you didn't purify yourself in a tent for two weeks, you're violating God's will. Have you ever worked on the Sabbath? Collected firewood, for example? Then you should be stoned to death.

Look my friend, the smartest thing any priest ever told me about the Bible was, "It's not a book -- it's a library." And you can't take a library literally. Not if you hope to stay sane.

Read your Bible, and read it carefully. Then come back and tell us all about how you intend to live according to every literal precept within it. I can't wait.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The universe wasn't created, it's always been here

[Lemur]

I think Zain and Nav need to get together ...

[Zain]

When Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sin's, things changed in a sense of the laws. But when it talks about how things are created, that kind of thing can't changed. That's why there is an Old Testament and a New Testament. I'm not talking about the laws, because of how things changed after the crusifiction, and the direct line of communication between God and Humans was created. People used to have to go to the Synagogue and pray, you know?

-ZainDustin

[Zain]

Things don't just appear, Sasaki.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Well, if you're ready to throw out Moses' laws, than you aren't really taking the Bible as literally as you claim, now are you? You've already gone deep into interpretaion land. Why are you allowed to ignore the word of God as given to Moses, but you're going to read Genesis as direct reportage?

You're already interpreting. You have to. The Bible cannot be read as literal truth, not if you want to have any sort of cogent life. Like I said, it's a library, and Christians should do everything in their power to learn from it. Do you want to see what the world looks like when everybody takes their scripture as the literal, unchaning Word of God? Do you want to know what it's like when science and art and squashed flat by the people who declare that they have divined God's will?

Go spend some time in Saudi Arabia. Then tell us how much you like living in a fundamentalist paradise. Say hi to the Wahhabis while you're there.

[Shaka_Khan]

Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.

-ZainDustin

We could say that God created the universe with a Big Bang. Then we all can agree on the Big Bang, unless someone prooves the Big Bang to be wrong.

[Keba]

An image says a thousand words ...



I don't really bother with what came before.

[Divinus Arma]

An image says a thousand words ...



I don't really bother with what came before.

SEE YOU THERE BIG DADDY!


If hell existed, then humanity should not exist. Why? I love my unborn children enough not to have them in order to save them from even a
.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of going to hell.

Let's look at the relationship between risk and benefit, shall we:

Chance of going to hell: .000000000000000000000001%.
Time spent in hell:99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999 to the power of 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999 years. And then some.

Point being, even a teeny tiny risk of damning my children to hell makes it worthwhile not to have them in order to spare them from eternal suffering.

THUS, the concept of hell is contrary to human survival. Becaue my this logic, no would ever have children and the human race would end.

[Upxl]

We could say that God created the universe with a Big Bang. Then we all can agree on the Big Bang, unless someone prooves the Big Bang to be wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong ,but wasn't the big bang just a theory?
It's not yet been proven, true?

Big bang: first there was nothing, and then that blew up as well.

[InsaneApache]

The Big Bang Theory is the dominant scientific theory about the origin of the universe. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions.

In 1927, the Belgian priest Georges Lemaître was the first to propose that the universe began with the explosion of a primeval atom. His proposal came after observing the red shift in distant nebulas by astronomers to a model of the universe based on relativity. Years later, Edwin Hubble found experimental evidence to help justify Lemaître's theory. He found that distant galaxies in every direction are going away from us with speeds proportional to their distance.

The big bang was initially suggested because it explains why distant galaxies are traveling away from us at great speeds. The theory also predicts the existence of cosmic background radiation (the glow left over from the explosion itself). The Big Bang Theory received its strongest confirmation when this radiation was discovered in 1964 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson, who later won the Nobel Prize for this discovery.

Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.

[_Martyr_]

Correct me if I'm wrong ,but wasn't the big bang just a theory?
It's not yet been proven, true?

So is aerodynamic lift, are you sure you want to chance getting on a plane?

[BDC]

Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.

-ZainDustin

So you believe in women covering their heads and slavery being fine and stuff?

Anyway if God fails to understand his own universe, the name isn't God, it's manipulative controller and he isn't an all-powerful being, he's a human who wants power.

Simply what the universe looks like suggests the big bang. You can 'see' this (or at least an ancient universe billions of years old) by certain frequencies of electro-magnetic radiation. So claiming this isn't so is no different from claiming what you see in front of you with your eyes is not what it is. Hey look it's a banana! No, wait, it's a house, because this book here says so.

[BigTex]

I believe the big bang created the universe as we know it today. Its a simple and understandable theory, big explosion spreads matters around, matter gathers together forms supermassive black holes, supermassive black holes create stars in surounding matter. Stars gravity helps to produce planets planet, walla earth. What I cant explain nor have I heard an explaination of is how the matter that was condensed to such a point got there in the first place. Obviously matter doesnt appear out of nowhere now, so it had to come from someplace, which is why there is room for a diety. We still know very little about our universe ad have much to learn. I would be curious as to whether or not a big bang hasnt happened many times in the past recreating the universe. Whether or not there are more universes out there, much like galaxies. Until the day we know everything about the universe I think something had to help out the big bang a little bit to get started.

[Zain]

Let's change the subject just a little bit to Evolution. Fact or not?

-ZainDustin

[InsaneApache]

No. Create a new thread.

I believe the big bang created the universe as we know it today. Its a simple and understandable theory, big explosion spreads matters around, matter gathers together forms supermassive black holes, supermassive black holes create stars in surounding matter. Stars gravity helps to produce planets planet, walla earth. What I cant explain nor have I heard an explaination of is how the matter that was condensed to such a point got there in the first place. Obviously matter doesnt appear out of nowhere now, so it had to come from someplace, which is why there is room for a diety. We still know very little about our universe ad have much to learn. I would be curious as to whether or not a big bang hasnt happened many times in the past recreating the universe. Whether or not there are more universes out there, much like galaxies. Until the day we know everything about the universe I think something had to help out the big bang a little bit to get started.

We (humans) may never know. That doesn't preclude the fact they we will try. God willing.

[Papewaio]

Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.

-ZainDustin

What an arrogant condescending thing to say.

1) You should not tell people how they may or may not practice their religion without expecting a broadside in return.

2) It is fundamentalist claptrap like that, that gives religions such a bad reputation.

3) I know plenty of Christians who have the intellectual ability to understand the Big Bang and the internal belief structure to believe in God.

4) Also most of the Christians that I know talk about have a personal relationship with their saviour Jesus Christ and that a lot of the bible is allegorical... Even Jesus uses allegorical tales... he talks about seeds finding the right ground to grow in... rocks being to barren, soil being too thin... he wasn't giving a gardening lesson, he was talking about faith.

5) The bible lists what is most important: Love... and it never lists creationism.

[Zain]

What an arrogant condescending thing to say.

1) You should not tell people how they may or may not practice their religion without expecting a broadside in return.

2) It is fundamentalist claptrap like that, that gives religions such a bad reputation.

3) I know plenty of Christians who have the intellectual ability to understand the Big Band and the internal belief structure to believe in God.

4) Also most of the Christians that I know talk about have a personal relationship with their saviour Jesus Christ and that a lot of the bible is allegorical... Even Jesus uses allegorical tales... he talks about seeds finding the right ground to grow in... rocks being to barren, soil being too thin... he wasn't giving a gardening lesson, he was talking about faith.

5) The bible lists what is most important: Love... and it never lists creationism.

Creationism isn't the most important thing, as you have said. It is about having a relation ship with your Lord, Jesus Christ. But it is a very fun thing to debate about. That's all.

-ZainDustin

[Byzantine Mercenary]

ZainDustin, your treading a thin line, the statement i have qouted below is vergeing on judgemental which is a very serious sin. I don't agree that your as bad as Nav but you must understand that god is the only one who may judge others beliefs.

If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.
-ZainDustin

Don't forget this is a games forum, not many people here are being veryserious (apart from the aformentioned Nav) the bible has a great creation story that mirrors the big bang as much as any bronze age text could and more then you would expect it to. although the big bang is not a hole proof theory.

There is not danger in debating trust me on this i have never lost my faith in a debate but i have gained perspective which is very important. You should know the difference between Peter and Paul they were different people with different perspectives.

evolution also fits in with the creation story in genesis, look at the order in which the species are created.

[Zain]

ZainDustin, your treading a thin line, the statement i have qouted below is vergeing on judgemental which is a very serious sin. I don't agree that your as bad as Nav but you must understand that god is the only one who may judge others beliefs.


Don't forget this is a games forum, not many people here are being veryserious (apart from the aformentioned Nav) the bible has a great creation story that mirrors the big bang as much as any bronze age text could and more then you would expect it to. although the big bang is not a hole proof theory.

There is not danger in debating trust me on this i have never lost my faith in a debate but i have gained perspective which is very important. You should know the difference between Peter and Paul they were different people with different perspectives.

evolution also fits in with the creation story in genesis, look at the order in which the species are created.

You've been following this discussion, haven't you? :detective:

As I have been talking with everyone, I realize now saying that was wrong, although I still see the Big Bang as wrong.

-ZainDustin

[mystic brew]

glad you acknowledge a mistake. it speaks well of you.

But can we investigate why you think the big bang is wrong? In the original form, the creation is in poetry, in figurative language, yes? and Jesus spoke in parables all the time... I don't see how the bible supports this creationism.

I'd just be interested to hear why?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

As I have been talking with everyone, I realize now saying that was wrong, although I still see the Big Bang as wrong.

-ZainDustin

im sceptical of the theory myself, heck i started a thread about it once:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=59837

[Marcellus]

I doubt we'll actually know how the universe was made anytime soon, if ever.

[Quietus]

Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.

Nobody knows how it "was created" or "came about".

[InsaneApache]

I find creation myths fascinating. A lot of the ancient religions tell of a great flood for example. This indicates to me a cataclysmic event that unfolded back in our pre-historical past. (Black Sea anyone?)

As for the universe, it is my opinion that to all intents and purposes it's always been there. In the human time scale, that is.

The Bible was early bronze age mans attempt to explain the world around him. As other 'good' books of that era are. Having no knowledge of physics, chemistry or biology, they had to try and find reasons for natural events. So they decided that a supreme being must be the answer.

As for taking the Bible literally, possibly, as long as we go back to living in tents and herding goats, then it might work.

BTW Kukri congrats on the promotion.

[Dutch_guy]

As for the universe, it is my opinion that to all intents and purposes it's always been there. In the human time scale, that is.

The Bible was early bronze age mans attempt to explain the world around him. As other 'good' books of that era are. Having no knowledge of physics, chemistry or biology, they had to try and find reasons for natural events. So they decided that a supreme being must be the answer.

As for taking the Bible literally, possibly, as long as we go back to living in tents and herding goats, then it might work.

BTW Kukri congrats on the promotion.

That's more or less how I think about it

[Rodion Romanovich]

Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.

I believe that God created it, but some Atheists and Scientists will say Big Bang and stuff, so bring it on.

-ZainDustin

Was the universe really ever created? And what is the definition of universe - matter and energy, only matter, or only energy? Or is it the very concept of space in which we can be positioned, or the concept of time, or both?

If God is defined as the creator of the universe, the universe was created by God. But why would that mean that that God concept will be the same as the God concept you pray to? And would they ever be able to be the same being? Or would the word God be defined as a collection of several distinct abstract and non-abstract phenomenons and concepts bunched together in a collection (and therefore have no function other than classifying distinct things into a group, rather than being a result of those distinct things being the same thing in reality) like classification of animals is done: every ape and human is a primate, but a primate shouldn't be comprehended as a single being. And if the universe was never really created, God would be a concept referring to something that doesn't necessarily exist, but doesn't necessarily not exist either, combined with phenomenons that might exist. Could God then be a comprehensible concept to model as a single being when you think of it?