The creation of the Universe.

[Zain]

Let's hear it, how was the Universe created, and be prepared to be questioned.

I believe that God created it, but some Atheists and Scientists will say Big Bang and stuff, so bring it on.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Big bang and God are not incompatible -- plenty of Christians believe in it. The correct word for people who prefer the literal scripture to scienfic evidence is "fundamentalist," not "Christian."

[Marcellus]

I doubt we'll actually know how the universe was made anytime soon, if ever.

[Zain]

Christian's jobs are to lead people to God, and believe everything in the bible. The bible says that the Universe was created by God's hand, so the definition of Christian is one who believes Everything in the bible. If you don't, you need help. (You meaning anyone). Christians who believe in Big Bang are definently not on the same page as God.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Zain, if you're going to get all fundamentalist, please read all of Moses' laws, which are laid out very clearly as the direct commandments of God. Have you hugged your mother while she was menstruating? Then you are unclean, and if you didn't purify yourself in a tent for two weeks, you're violating God's will. Have you ever worked on the Sabbath? Collected firewood, for example? Then you should be stoned to death.

Look my friend, the smartest thing any priest ever told me about the Bible was, "It's not a book -- it's a library." And you can't take a library literally. Not if you hope to stay sane.

Read your Bible, and read it carefully. Then come back and tell us all about how you intend to live according to every literal precept within it. I can't wait.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The universe wasn't created, it's always been here

[Lemur]

I think Zain and Nav need to get together ...

[Zain]

When Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sin's, things changed in a sense of the laws. But when it talks about how things are created, that kind of thing can't changed. That's why there is an Old Testament and a New Testament. I'm not talking about the laws, because of how things changed after the crusifiction, and the direct line of communication between God and Humans was created. People used to have to go to the Synagogue and pray, you know?

-ZainDustin

[Zain]

Things don't just appear, Sasaki.

-ZainDustin

[Zain]

Who's Nav?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Things don't just appear, Sasaki.

-ZainDustin

Exactly, that's why I say it's always been here

[Lemur]

Well, if you're ready to throw out Moses' laws, than you aren't really taking the Bible as literally as you claim, now are you? You've already gone deep into interpretaion land. Why are you allowed to ignore the word of God as given to Moses, but you're going to read Genesis as direct reportage?

You're already interpreting. You have to. The Bible cannot be read as literal truth, not if you want to have any sort of cogent life. Like I said, it's a library, and Christians should do everything in their power to learn from it. Do you want to see what the world looks like when everybody takes their scripture as the literal, unchaning Word of God? Do you want to know what it's like when science and art and squashed flat by the people who declare that they have divined God's will?

Go spend some time in Saudi Arabia. Then tell us how much you like living in a fundamentalist paradise. Say hi to the Wahhabis while you're there.

[Zain]

I'd rather not got to Saudi Arabia. I'm not throwing out the Ten Commandments, only saying the old laws have changed due to the crusifixion.

[Lemur]

Nav is our resident fundamentalist. But hey, he's been here a long time, and if you want to apply for the job, I'm sure you'll get a fair chance.

Another thought -- since God is all-powerful and omniscient, since God is awesome beyond our comprehension, and since God doesn't have to justify a blessed thing to us (see Job for more details), why would you believe that a trans-human divinity would drop a literal text on us? Why would God feel the need to give us something so basic, so rudimentary, that all we need to do is connect the dots and do as little contemplation as possible? Does that sound like an omniscient being to you?

[Zain]

Nav is our resident fundamentalist. But hey, he's been here a long time, and if you want to apply for the job, I'm sure you'll get a fair chance.

Another thought -- since God is all-powerful and omniscient, since God is awesome beyond our comprehension, and since God doesn't have to justify a blessed thing to us (see Job for more details), why would you believe that a trans-human divinity would drop a literal text on us? Why would God feel the need to give us something so basic, so rudimentary, that all we need to do is connect the dots and do as little contemplation as possible? Does that sound like an omniscient being to you?

I never said it was literal. The bible is a big puzzle worth decoding.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Another thought -- since God is all-powerful and omniscient, since God is awesome beyond our comprehension, and since God doesn't have to justify a blessed thing to us (see Job for more details), why would you believe that a trans-human divinity would drop a literal text on us? Why would God feel the need to give us something so basic, so rudimentary, that all we need to do is connect the dots and do as little contemplation as possible? Does that sound like an omniscient being to you?

He put it here to see who would take it literally. And then he sends all those people to hell

The atheists end up in heaven

[Zain]

He put it here to see who would take it literally. And then he sends all those people to hell

The atheists end up in heaven

[Zain]

it's a strange combination to not believe in God, but believe in Heaven. Seems kind of Oxy Moron, doesn't it?

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

Very funny, Sasaki. Reminds me of the South Park episode where all the dead people are insisting that they led righteous lives, full of love and compassion, but the guy at the gate says," Sorry, the correct answer was ... Mormon."

Zain, you're already interpreting the Moses' law away, which means you've just gotten rid of the only part of the Bible which condemns homosexuals. Now you're admitting that the Bible must be contemplated and decoded. It's a very small step from where you're standing to accepting that science has a legitimate role to play, that maybe, just maybe, the Lord's creation is worth the same level of scrutiny and study that the Bible deserves.

So let's not go calling people who believe in the Big Bang and/or Evolution a bunch of non-Christians, okay? It makes you sound like a fundamentalist.

[Zain]

I'm just saying that, why would the bible say, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth" if it wasn't true?

-ZainDustin

[Mongoose]

I never said it was literal. The bible is a big puzzle worth decoding.

I think most people will agree that the Bible is metaphor. Since it's just a collection of stories to help guide you, then we should only realy judge the values that it preaches, and not it's historical value.

Frankly, when I read the OT part of the Bible, it feels like some non-scifi version of a dystopian world ruled by callous alien overlords, who rule with an iron fist and kill all who disobey even the most arbitrary rule.

An example? That little SOB kid who thought he could gather firewood on a sunday without getting some divine justice...

[Lemur]

As I said earlier, the big bang does not exclude God. Many astrophysicists are also religious. And just because an early Jewish priest wrote that "God created the heavens and earth" does not mean that particular Jewish priest had the whole story. And how would it sound to everybody else if God did reveal to that guy exactly what happened? Would he jump up and run around the Temple, babbling about singularities, event horizons and the way that plasma converts to matter? His buddies would have said, "Zachariah, you've been sniffing too much incense," and taken him outside to sober up.

I strongly recommend you read up on how the Bible was composed. We know a lot more than we ever hoped to know, thanks to the discoveries of ancient texts in Israel and Egypt. Bible study has come a long, long way in the last 20 years. It won't shake your faith, unless you let it. And a book is much more meaningful when you know something about how it was written.

[Zain]

All I know about how it was written was that God used these people as vessels to write the bible.

[Lemur]

Yes, of course, but how did God use those vessels? And was he using them all in the same way? And since we have been given free will by the Lord, to what degree have we managed to mess these texts up?

It wouldn't kill you to read up on the current state of scriptural study. There's some fascinating stuff out there.

[Zain]

You really should leave alone the whole last comments telling me what I should do, it's getting annoying.

[Lemur]

Didn't mean to offend you, Zain, and I'm sorry that I have. Please accept my apologies.

Would you care to respond to the points I made?

Exempli gratia:

Yes, of course, but how did God use those vessels? And was he using them all in the same way? And since we have been given free will by the Lord, to what degree have we managed to mess these texts up?

[Zain]

I wouldn't know how God used the Vessels, but I'm sure the way religious fanatics are, the bible's text shouldn't have been messed with.

You didn't offend me, it was just annoying. I hope we are nicely debating, instead of angrily debating.

[Lemur]

By Backroom standards, this is a terribly nice debate. We should serve tea and crumpets, it's so nice. We're probably sitting on wicker furniture, watching people play croquet in summer whites while servants bring us mint juleps. That's the kind of nice I'm talking about.

The overriding point I'm trying to make, Zain, is that fundamentalism is a slippery slope. It's very comforting to say, "I have God's will right here and nobody can tell me otherwise," but that way madness lies. And I really doubt that it's pleasing to God.

[Zain]

You sound sarcastic about the kind of debate we're having.

I doubt debate makes God happy because my father once told me that debate is one of the things that Satan wants more then ever, because it can create a shaky belief. I just like to debate because it feels like I'm testing myself, and makes my knowledge greater.

-ZainDustin

[Lemur]

I was trying to be silly, not sarcastic. Sorry, tone gets lost in forums. I was attempting to make a funny.

Debate is what Satan wants us to do? Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it. Let's do a little side-by-side comparison:

Debate is fundamental to:

• Democracy (let's form a governmental system where everybody can voice their opinion, and then we all vote on it)
• Moderation (hard to be an extremist when you're digesting other peoples' views)
• Learning (disputation is a cornerstone of all knowledge)

A lack of debate is fundamental to:

• Dictatorships (listen and obey)
• Extremism (everybody agrees with me or is silent! Yay!)
• Rigid-mindedness (there's this one way of looking at things, and I don't want to hear different)

Which of these sets of characteristics do you suppose Satan would prefer?