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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Clearly Japan was the most powerful ally of Germany, although its contribution to Germany's fortunes was dubious at best. This was for at least three reasons:
    (1) Most fatally, it drew Germany into war with America (Churchill on hearing Hitler's declaration of war on America: "Oh, so we won after all").
    (2) As has already been said, Japan's failure to threaten Siberia allowed Russia to withdraw key units from there to the defence of Moscow - arguably as important a turning point as Stalingrad. (IIRC, Moscow knew Japan's - lack of - intentions from a spy in Japan).
    (3) The US pursued a "Germany first" policy, limiting the diversionary effect of the Pacific war on the European theatre.
    Nonetheless, Japan did inflict major defeats on the allies (e.g. Singapore was regarded as the worst defeat in British military history) and tied up large amounts of allied resources.

    Italy was the other major ally of Germany, but was arguably a liability.
    (1) It made no real contribution to the conquest of France, coming in late and getting bogged down in the southeast.
    (2) Its humiliations in North Africa sucked Germany into a peripheral theatre, ultimately leading to the surrender of a large German army (IIRC a quarter of a million men) in Tunisia.
    3) It got bogged down in Albania and forced the Germans into a Balkan campaign that delayed Barbarossa, perhaps fatally, and then at Crete dissuaded Germany from ever again using paratroops in large deployments.
    The loss of Italian forces in 1943 did not appear to significantly hamper the Germans, who slowed Allied progress up Italy to a crawl.

    Seriously, it is hard to think of good examples of the successes of Axis cooperation. I suppose Germany's European allies - Finns, Italians, Romanians, Hungarians etc - helped maintain the line in the vast Eastern front. And, as Kraxis has said, the Italians manned much of the North African front. But most Axis successes were almost purely German or Japanese achievements - even in the desert, it was two or three German divisions that made most of the breakthroughs.
    Last edited by econ21; 03-14-2006 at 01:37.

  2. #2
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    As noted the Axis was not very good as a bunch of allies.

    But in categories...

    Strength: Japan
    Intent: Hungary (Hothy seems to have been willing to invade China if Hitler had asked)
    Intelligence: Italy
    Resources: Rumania
    Effective: Finland (but her intents as an ally was not very good)

    So almost each of Germany's allies had their points, but combined they didn't do well.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  3. #3
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraxis
    As noted the Axis was not very good as a bunch of allies.

    But in categories...

    Strength: Japan
    Intent: Hungary (Hothy seems to have been willing to invade China if Hitler had asked)
    Intelligence: Italy
    Resources: Rumania
    Effective: Finland (but her intents as an ally was not very good)

    So almost each of Germany's allies had their points, but combined they didn't do well.
    Those damn Nazis took all of our petrol, from the Ploiesti oil fields.

    As for Odessa, true. I'm really proud that my grandfather played a crucial role in conquering Odessa. He was the only guy who volunteered to photograph the russian positions. And he did it 4 times, before the idiots realised they were being spied.

    Also, my grandpa has the Iron Cross.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

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    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  4. #4
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Erasing the past...
    Last edited by spmetla; 04-26-2008 at 04:11.

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    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
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    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  5. #5
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Spmetla,

    I agree all of it. We were behind with the armament and such. But at least we fought with courage, but it didn't help us out.

    But, in the communist period, Irak and Iran were supplied by Romania when they engaged in war!
    Yeah, I know. Weird.
    But that is the truth....
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  6. #6
    Now sporting a classic avatar! Member fallen851's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Axis forces were not very good at working with each other.

    Yes Germany helped Finland, but Finland didn't return the favor and support the siege of Leningrad. I wouldn't really say Finland helped the Germans, the Germans were hoping the Finnish would provide experienced winter troops for the siege, and the Germans didn't get it.

    Italy simply wasn't ready for World War II, and her forces were poorly led. Rommel ended up showing the effectiveness of Italian troops that were not under Italian command, but this infuriated the Italian High Command, as he consistently refused orders from the Italian and failed to let them know of his offensive plans. This created a rift between the German and Italian High Commands.

    Italy and Vichy France could have used their navies to challenge the English navy for the mediterran sea (spelling...), and of course cut supply lines ot the British in Africa, which was a key turning point in the war. But instead both fleets sat in ports and were decimated by the English navy. Many historians think that if either fleets had been competent, just one could have overwhelmed the English fleet in the mediterran sea for several reasons: #1 England lacked bases in the mediterran, as before the war it was agreed England would deal with the Atlantic and France the mediterran, #2 England fleets were being used for the naval blockade on Germany, and this of course required many ships, #3 England had to fend of the U-boats and escort convey's, and even a few hundred u-boats means that the British must use many times the ships in protecting each and every convey, #4 England had sent ships to fight against Japan. In other words, the English fleet was quite splintered and vunerable.

    On the Eastern Front, cautious German war planners counted Romanian and Hungarian forces as only 1/2 to 2/3 as good as German troops, and there is only a few instances where they measured up to the Germans. For the most part their troops were not engaged in primary roles in key offensive operations and were generally used to protect supply lines and provide rearguard defense.

    And of course Japan's refusal to break the non-aggression pact (based on their honor) with Russia (despite the fact Russia eventually broke it), doomed the Axis powers to defeat. Only by launching a powerful two front war on the Soviet Union could the Axis powers have won the war. Most of the Russian forces defending Siberia had been shipped back east, to defend Moscow, and there was little standing between the Japanese and the Urals. The Japanese did not fear the Russians, that is entirely inconsistent with their beliefs about superiority.

    In fact, I wouldn't even consider Japan and Germany militarily allied, despite the fact they had a formal agreement, they had no cooperation on any military matters.

    World War II didn't have to as one sided as it turned out to be. If you've ever played Allies and Axis the board game, you find that out very quickly, and it takes a lot to defeat a good Axis player.

    With just these few examples, we see Germany's allies as very poor and undependable, and Japan's honor and belief in working alone, eventually doomed the Axis powers.
    Last edited by fallen851; 03-22-2006 at 20:04.
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  7. #7
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Military co-operation between the Axis powers of WW2

    Couple comments for fallen851 post. I disagree on your opinion that the Japanese didnt attack Soviet Union based on honour. There was a brief war between Japan and Soviet Union before the World War II flamed on its fullest.The Soviet-Japanese War (July 1938 - December 1939).In the Manchukuo Campaign and later on Campaign in Korea. Soviet back then Lietenant-General Georgi K. Zhukov, later a Marshal of the USSR and Stalin's most renowned commander utterly beated the Japanese forces.Japanese was well aware what the Eastern and Northern propotion of Soviet Army was capable of.In my personal opinion these Siberian and Caucasian troops penformed in many cases lot better then Russian troops. Here is a good article about the War in detail:

    http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/japa...altjap/sjw.htm

    About the Finnish part on Siege of Leningrad i think its a very intresting question.That has been debated lot here in Finland. There were many reasons behind the decision that Finland didnt take actively part in the Siege,While her troops were in an artillery range from it in Autumn 1941. First we have to realize that the Finish army was never during the conflict under the command of German high command and it refused to do lots of things during Barbarossa.
    Second The Finnish and German operation plans were agreed before hand.The plan was that Finnish army would take back the Karelian Isthmus and block the Leningrad from North West.Also Finland was supposed to take The Aunus peninsula(East Karelia) on the North side of Lake Ladoga in which they succeeded.In the mean while German Armygroup North was to Encircle Leningrad from Other directions and meet Finish troops in River Syväri(Svir) and by that complete the encirclation of Leningrad and also free half of the Finnish army to either Attack against Leningrad or To Attack North towards Arkangel and cut of the railroad connection between Moscow,Leningrad,and Soviet Unions most important harbour in Icy Sea Murmansk.
    The Plan failed becouse the German Army Group North couldnt reach the Finnish forces on river Syväri.They got to Town of Tikhvin at November 8 1941.But couldnt advance any further.
    The Finnish high Command insisted that the connection between Finnish and German troops had to be achieved before any new Operations could be started
    And since Germans couldnt achieve that goal.Finish lined for in Defence.This has been all about the Military reasons why Finland didnt actively wanted to be a part of Siege of Leningrad.The political reasons behind that are a whole other matter.Here is a link to Wiki about the Siege:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

    Here is a map of the General attacking directions.(Not very good one ):

    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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