Holocaust Question

[Csargo]

I have a question for whoever can answer it. In my history class we are studying WWII and the Holocaust. My question is after WWII was over and the Holocaust survivers went back to there lives were the Jews that stayed in Germany still Persecuted by the Germans.

[Upxl]

I doubt they were still prosecuted.
The German people were in a rather big shock when the "work camps" were brought in to the open.
The Allies made them go to the movie theatres to watch the films they made off the camps.
Don't think anyone would still have the nerve to prosecute let alone judge them after that.

But it's a good question.
After building up all that hat against the Jewish people.
How did the people looked at them when the war was over.

[econ21]

I vaguely recall there were some incidents of attacks on released Jews in Poland; I haven't heard about any in Germany.

I doubt many German Jews wanted to return to their old lives in Germany. I suspect Palestine or the US sounded much more attractive options.

[Kraxis]

I haven't heard of any incidents, but I guess old hate dies slowly, so some almost certainly must have happened.

But given how the population was more interested in getting their lives back together, rebuilding and such, as well as having quite a few Allies troops watching over them, I doubt the attacks could have been that many.

[KrooK]

You are not right.
It's very easy to say - there must have been attacks.
Some Jews in Poland after WWII has been murdered but not because Poles love murdering Jews. In some situation communist secret police organised massacred because they want decrease good opinion about Poles. Some Jews were killed by polish anti-communist resistance, because they many Jews served in secret police (yes - in that secret police but in different troops). And some of them were robbed and murdered by normal criminals.

And if you are talking about germany - remember that most german Jews has been murdered during war, there were maybe 4000 left. There were almost nobody to get back. And telling about german society - they were still racist.
It was quiet racism, but it was there. For example in german school books 50% of Poland was called "german territories temporary ocupied by Poland".
German society changed itself, but after 1968 revolution.
Even now some remains of racism is in Germany. If you don't trust me, check what are national minorities in Germany and why 3.000.000 of Turks and 1.200.000 Poles are not count as minorities.

[Franconicus]

And if you are talking about germany - remember that most german Jews has been murdered during war, there were maybe 4000 left. There were almost nobody to get back.

Were there really so few left? Do you have a source?
I know that there were Jews who survived and even many who came back to Germany from their exile. They prefered to come back to a racist and ruined coutry instead of living in the US or in Brazil or in Isreal. Why? Because they were Germans.

And telling about german society - they were still racist.
It was quiet racism, but it was there.

Yes there was. How could it not have been? The propaganda of the Nazis was strong. However, there was also the military government of the Allies with their anti nazi programs. Maybe not very effective, but at least no one dared to show his racism openly. However, not all the Germans were Nazis. Many refugees returned too, communists, socialists, conservatives, people of the churches and the unions. And many Germans had learned their lessons.

For example in german school books 50% of Poland was called "german territories temporary ocupied by Poland".

You may call it revanchism, but not racism
Germany, or at least the Western part did not accept the regulations of Potsdam. The seperation of the eastern parts of Germany were never signed by any German politician or general. Unlike the Versaille treaty in 1919. And please do not forget, that millions of Germans were forced to leave their home and leave their property. Those refugees were not willing to give it up forever and any politician, who was willing to accept the new border, was dead in a political sense. Only in the frame of the reunion it German politicians were able to agree to the Oder border.

German society changed itself, but after 1968 revolution.
Even now some remains of racism is in Germany.

Right! Is there racism in Poland?

If you don't trust me, check what are national minorities in Germany and why 3.000.000 of Turks and 1.200.000 Poles are not count as minorities.

Again, a bad example. If my definition is right, minorities are different ethnic groups but German citizens. There are Danish, for example, they count as minorities and in general I do not think they have to complain about racism. The Turks and Polish you are talking about are not German citizens, right? If so, then they are propably not counted as minorities, more like foreign guests.

[KrooK]

Franconicus - many Poles (i means hundreds of thousands) got german citizenship and most Turks into Germany has been borned there. So they are Germany citizens. But they can't improve their culture and even language.
Some german courts during divorce cases beetwen polish-german marriages always give children to german and NOT ALLOW POLE ON SPEAKING WITH CHILDREN USING POLISH LANGUAGE. Isn't it racism?

Millions of germans have to leave their homes and move west. very good thumbsup:
THEY STARTED WAR AND THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED. I wonder why these "poor:" germans don't tell what were they doing with polish neighours during war or earlier. And it didn't stated after nazist won election. It started about 1870 - check what was HAKATA organization.
Only in 1939 and 1940 about 500.000 of Poles from Greater Poland has been forced to leave their homes and go to General Gubernation. Without nothing!!!
People from Prussia and east part of germany were most racist and support nazist much stronger than other germans.
During war ans soon after it 6.000.000 millions of Poles died, about 7.000.000has been forced to leave their homes and find new ones. Germans wanted destroy Poland and completely murder our nation. Poles got some options - let them live in Poland like we did in 1920 (and German minority did everything to destroy Poland), force them to leave Poland or simply and cheap kill them. I think they should thank us now because they on our place would definitely choosen 3rd option.

So don't expect we regret germans - they simply got what they proved.

[The Wizard]

We were sent to nice little refugee camps -- camps, how thoughtful! -- following the end of WWII, and ordered to stay there and find our family, or what remained of it for that matter. The authorities, Brits or French or whatever, weren't really happy with the Jews traveling about at the time, so my people was forced to spend another couple years in camps. Camps, yes. Very thoughtful. No bitterness -- really -- but I just find the entire idea a bit damned stupid after what the Jews had gone through in WWII.

But no real oppression. We were barred, yes, from what was then the British Mandate of Palestine (paradoxical, this name, seeing as the Leage of Nations was as dead as old Adolf and the UN had taken its place; goes to show you how much of a LoN 'mandate' it really was), and anyone who attempted to make the run (ships like the Exodus come to mind) was deported to such fun locales such as Cyprus, or straight back to the Provençal camps.

The situation in the camps was pretty squalid, but I'd say overall a lot better than the German ones. No slave labor, gassing, burning or anything of the like there; but still, being stuck in a camp for the second time must not have been good on the old Jewish mind, after the shoah.

Meanwhile, I have read something on the Poles (occupied by the Soviets as they were) closing their borders (for emigration) for Jews attempting to escape the land of so many horrors and join the Aliyah Bet. Why? The author mused that the Poles wanted to hide what had happened in Auschwitz etc., but I find this a bit doubtful, seeing as the Poles hadn't really done much (be that for or against the Jews) in regards to the shoah; ye olde nazis had done, obviously, most of the job.

No, no, the times following WWII were not happy. Mind you, over ninety percent of that unhappiness was caused by the nazis, but the Jewish camps, illegality of migrating to what was to become Eretz Israel, not to mention the stealing of homes and possessions left in the care of supposed 'friends' (neighbors etc.) when survivors attempted to return home cannot possibly have helped.

KrooK -- calm your ass down, huh? You cannot possibly lay the blame on the entire German populace. You can perhaps chastise them for their inactiveness -- wir haben das nicht gewussen -- but that is all. I could summon a great many reasons to hate all Russians, Ukrainians, and, yes, Poles for what happened to my people in history at the behest of these nations -- but I don't. What's the use? They happened sixty years ago, done by other people, not these of today. Besides that, how many Poles do I know? One, and she's a very beautiful and sweet girl. No reason to go hating a huge group of people for something in the past, however horrible (and even considering the fact that the shoah is not in the past for many Jews, me included), without knowing these people and without taking notice that nothing is black and white, and everything is nice and sexy grey.

[Franconicus]

Franconicus - many Poles (i means hundreds of thousands) got german citizenship and most Turks into Germany has been borned there. So they are Germany citizens. But they can't improve their culture and even language.

This is a very interesting topic: how do you deal with people from foreign countries if they become German citizens. I think most Germans, including the politicians, expected that they became assimilated. This happaned for example with many Poles who came as foreign workers before WW1 and stayed here and became Germans. I think most of their grandchildren do not speak Polish any longer. Now we have a much bigger number of people and most Germans did not realize that this will change our society and culture, too. To a certain degree you are right if you say that Germany has no plan how to deal with those citizens from foreign countries or with people who keep their old citizenship but live in Germany. However, most other countries have more problems with that (look at France or the Netherlands). And I would not call it rasicm if you expect that someone who becomes German citizen also adopts German culture. I would call it unrealistic, maybe.

Some german courts during divorce cases beetwen polish-german marriages always give children to german and NOT ALLOW POLE ON SPEAKING WITH CHILDREN USING POLISH LANGUAGE. Isn't it racism?

Did not know that. If it is true then it is bad and racistic. Normally the children stay with their mother (which is not good, either).

Millions of germans have to leave their homes and move west. very good thumbsup:
THEY STARTED WAR AND THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED. I wonder why these "poor:" germans don't tell what were they doing with polish neighours during war or earlier. And it didn't stated after nazist won election. It started about 1870 - check what was HAKATA organization.
Only in 1939 and 1940 about 500.000 of Poles from Greater Poland has been forced to leave their homes and go to General Gubernation. Without nothing!!!
People from Prussia and east part of germany were most racist and support nazist much stronger than other germans.
During war ans soon after it 6.000.000 millions of Poles died, about 7.000.000has been forced to leave their homes and find new ones. Germans wanted destroy Poland and completely murder our nation. Poles got some options - let them live in Poland like we did in 1920 (and German minority did everything to destroy Poland), force them to leave Poland or simply and cheap kill them. I think they should thank us now because they on our place would definitely choosen 3rd option.

KrooK,
everything you say about Germany started the war and about crimes Germans did is true and your list is not even complete. No German government ever denied that. And the big majority of the Germans never doubted that. Only some scatterbrains do, but they are really just a handful. The big majority of the Germans and all German governments are regretting what happaned. That may not be much, but all they can do now.

However, not all Germans were guilty. Not all German children and babies, who died during the exodus, were bad fascists. Many innocent suffered and this is something the Poles should accept too.
Personally I think it was inevitable that the Germans were ejected from the lost territories and finally the German government accepted this fact.

So don't expect we regret germans - they simply got what they proved.

I don't! I just want you to see that you cannot lump together all Germans. If you do, then this is racism. And both, Germans and Poles, should not tolerate this any more.

[KrooK]

Franconicus - my previous post might have been misunderstood.

Exodus from Western Poland/Eastern Germany has not been planned by Poles.
Russians, American and Englishmen decided about it - Poles only executed it.
There were some crimes during it and we regret it. But it's true that it was only chance to resolve border problems beetwen Poland and Germany.
Put yourself into Poles situation these years (1945-46) - 20 years earlier (1919) Poland reconquered Greater Poland and let big German majority live there. Germans could use their language, go to their schools and establish their own organisations. Germans used these prerogatives to fight with Poland. They were doing everything they could to destroy our country.
Then during war they were simply trying to murder all nation.
With great human loses, city into ruins, 40% of coutry taken by Russia, what Poles could do? And these Poles heard that according to Potsdam conference part of Eastern Germany (historically it was Poland) will be given Poland. Instead of that Poles must deport Germans from that terrains - of course if they want to do it.
I think we could do only this option - especially that german resistance (Werwolf) was quite strong (and they were killing polish civilians).
We can't forgot that some of these running civilians didn't live into their homes long. Remember that during winter 1939-1940 500.000 Poles has been forced to leave homes - these homes were given Germans. Good example is Erika Steinbach - she like talking about their homes she had to leave. It wasn't her home....

In my opinion into german history book you mix 2 things. Escape from Estern Prussia and Pommern in 1944 - 1945 and deportation from 1946-1947.
It's true that Russians were massacring civilians using methods similar to SS ones. But Poles didn't behave same - murders were solitary accidents (and later polish government regret it). I think that you blame Poles for things that did Red Army.

You might misunderstood me - I talked about historical point of view. Then it was necessary. Without that existence of Poland would be still in danger.
And it's true that Poles didn't like Germans for long time, but during last 20 years it changed. Now Germany and Germans are liked in Poland. For Poles you are ideal of reliable and well-organised persons. Furthermore I don't think Germany will be having similar problems with minorities like France now. In France these minorities are simply discriminated and everyone know it. In Germany situation is different - you are not allowing on such big discrimination and if minorities are not dangerous for you , you let them live. Despite Poles still laugh from German "alles in ordung", we simply like Germans (especially you highways )

[Franconicus]

KrooK,

We finally have got agreement about history. One additional comment: Germans often mix also deportion from Poland and from Romania or the CSSR. But I know that this is a complete different story.

I live in the south of Germany. Poland is far away and I have to admit that I do not know one personally.

Here Germans are a bit afraid that our jobs will go to Poland, because the Poles work for less money. I guess we have to work harder or you have to raise your wages

[KrooK]

dont worry m8