Cavalry spears vs swords

[orangat]

Do the weapons used by cavalry have any bonuses or penalties against a particular enemy they face?
Eg. Are spears more effective against other cavalry/chariots and swords more effective vs infantry.

[econ21]

I don't believe so. In Shogun, cavalry spears (yari cavalry) did get a bonus against cavalry. But I think CA stopped that with MTW. Spears (lances) do get higher charge values though. Some cavalry weapons (maces, axes etc) may be armour piercing.

In reality, I suspect cavalry spears (lances) were better against infantry (swords could do little against prone infantry) whereas a cavalry sword might have an advantage in a confused melee with other cavalry.

[Ciaran]

I know the Cataphract mace is armor-piercing, but other than that, I don´t think they have any special boni, at least not per default.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

IIRC someone said swords are 25% more deadly in the code, also swords have a higher attack rating than spears.

[Puzz3D]

export_descr_unit.txt for RTW v1.5
----------------------------------

;Details of unit's primary weapon. If the unit has a missile weapon it must be the primary
; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factor
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
; Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)

stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears. Phalanx capable units only
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man

;Details of secondary weapons. If the unit rides on, or has attached animals or vehicles
;then the secondary weapon details refer to their attacks. If the unit has missile weapons
;the secondary weapon will be the one used for melee
;If the unit has a primary melee weapon, it may have a secondary side arm
; stat_sec As per stat_pri (a value of no means no secondary weapon)
; stat_sec_attr As per stat_pri_attr



For example:

type warband huntsman gaul
dictionary warband_huntsman_gaul ; Forester Warband
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light_1
soldier warband_huntsman, 40, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hide_anywhere, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 4, arrow, 170, 30, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
stat_sec_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
stat_pri_armour 3, 4, 0, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 2, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 12, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 2, 960, 200, 100, 150, 960
ownership gauls


Second example:


type warband spear german
dictionary warband_spear_german ; Spear Warband
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier warband_spearman_german, 60, 0, 1.2
officer barb_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 3, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 2, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 4, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 510, 200, 60, 80, 510
ownership germans

[x-dANGEr]

Do the weapons used by cavalry have any bonuses or penalties against a particular enemy they face?
Eg. Are spears more effective against other cavalry/chariots and swords more effective vs infantry.

I think not. They don't have such bonuses/disadvantages.

[orangat]

I know the Cataphract mace is armor-piercing, but other than that, I don´t think they have any special boni, at least not per default.

Edit(correction) - Yes you are right. Catap mace is coded ap.

IIRC someone said swords are 25% more deadly in the code, also swords have a higher attack rating than spears.

Infantry spears suffer a penalty vs any infantry carrying swords. Triarii for example will be chewed up by any moderately capable infantry.

; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry

I know all that. I wanted to know if there was a hidden attribute or modifier. From my experience there doesn't seem to be any but I wanted to be sure.

[Braden]

Looking at the stats in Rome Vanilla the following seem to be true:

Lance / Spear armed cavalry have a higher charge value than normal.
Sword / Mace armed cavalry have a quite low charge value.

Lance / Spear armed cavalry still have quite a high melee value (for cavalry).
Sword / Mace armed cavalry have a similar melee stat.

Charge values do not seem increase at the same rate and are not consistent with the build level of the cavalry whilst Melee values do increase accordingly. (this isn’t completely consistent but is a good pointer)

Rome does NOT appear to have the Armour Piercing bonuses that were coded in the previous TW games AND the rock / paper / scissors simple approach has been made more complex and realistic.

Lance & Spear cavalry will fight with a normal melee weapon after they have lost their charge combat value and switched to melee value – assuming you remember to Alt-Click them into combat.

So, my own opinion is that Lance and Spear cavalry are best as they get a uniformly higher charge value, so do more damage on impact (assuming a full charge distance has been reached) AND will perform as well as comparable sword / mace armed cavalry in Melee (assuming the alt-click method is used).

However, due to the added complexity of the Rome combat system armoured horse units fair better in melee because they are armoured so can stay in melee for longer meaning this negates some of the disadvantage of being a sword / mace using unit.

IF you can get a lance / spear armed, armoured horse unit (Armenian Cataphracts for example) these perform best – High initial charge value, staying power in melee.

Sword armed, non-armoured cavalry are the worse available – low charge & low melee & no staying power in melee. However, most of these are Eastern and get a “Bonus” in the desert and have good stamina meaning they are ideal “mopping up” units. You don’t need good stats to run down routers, just long legs that can run all day.

Basically, each cavalry unit has a more or less specific use. Be it specialisation in a region (like Bedouin) or as unit breakers (Cataphracts). Low level cavalry are about as generalised as cavalry can be, the higher up the tech tree you get the more specialised cavalry becomes.

For example Bedouin’s “could” defeat Cataphracts IF they lead them on a merry dance through the battle and are in the Desert, and charge them down hill, with a following wind and are supported by infantry and….oh ok, I can’t think of how Bedouins could defeat Cats! BUT statistically it should be possible.

[x-dANGEr]

That spear thingy doesn't apply to cavalry. As they dont have 'spear' in their stat_pri_attr (Which explains what special attributes does the weapon mentioned in stat_pri have, like Armor Piercing, Spear, Long spear and so on) row, they have it in stat_pri (Which does only explain what is the weapon and it's strength).

[orangat]

I already know that spear armed cavalry have no spear attribute in the unit descr file.

I was still curious to know if hidden modifiers exist because in reality a cavalry spear is a poor melee weapon (although it is good in a charge or to pick off fleeing enemy).

[x-dANGEr]

I dont think their are any, except that clear fact that the sword melee attack for any cav unit is higher than it's spear's.

[Drusus Magnus]

I've had much better results ordering my Generals bodyguards to ALT attack, making them draw their swords instead of using their spears. Enemies get cut down much quicker. The only thing spears are good for are charges I think.

[Ciaran]

I think the initial idea was giving cavalry a spear type weapon for charges which they discard in favor of a melee weapon once the charging is done. However, for some reason or another it never quite worked as intended, the AI never uses the secondary cavalry weapon, to the best of my knowledge.

[TheViking]

do cavalries with lancers and spears have a 2nd weapon?

and if it is so, do i have to manualy activate that weapon myself or does it change automatic?

[Ciaran]

Not all of them. Take a look in the export_descr_unit file. If the unit has stats for a secondary weapon then it has one, obviously.
To make them use it you have to press ALT while giving the attack command, that way the unit uses its lance for the charge and changes to the melee weapon afterwards. Why this isn´t done automatically is beyond me.