The Most pointless type of warfare!

**nikolai1962** · 03-21-2006, 10:40

That's good cos my casse generals are a bit of an embarassment at the moment, hiding at the back of the battle and running away from everything.

nb Probably the same in vanilla but did you know the game locks up completely if you lose all your family members in one battle

**Danest** · 03-21-2006, 11:41

Casse general's chariots seem to have an enormous charge impact, in my experience, moreso than most cavalry. People go flying almost like they were hit by elephants. I tend to use chariots totally in the charge and retreat immediately tactic. They do seem completely useless in "holding the line" or when charging well-organized lines of heavy infantry or cavalry. I guess their role is like light cavalry with more weight in their charge.

**nikolai1962** · 03-21-2006, 11:57

I played a quick casse game in 0.72 or 0.73 and they did seem to make a good mess of enemy lines but yesterday in 0.74 they couldn't kill anything at all. maybe just because the rebel general had so many stars. dunno

read ranika's point after my second post.

the casse are fun, and having to organise the army to get max morale boosts makes it different and interesting (i've been using a second line for warcry cheerleading etc).

But the chariots seem differnt...

The more i think of it though the more i think my experiences yesterday were maybe due to the enemy general. I read a CA post once that said the command stars give attack and defense boosts and I'm thinking that if the battles are tested in custom battle situations the stats may not reflect the influence of the general. so maybe in some situations if a unit is getting +9 defense from a general it can create situations where another unit can't kill a single soldier. hard to say for sure but i rear-charged already engaged caledonians a bunch of times yesterday (re-fighting same battle where my family members kept both dying) and the chariots didn't kill a single one in the charge. Their charge is 10 now. don't know if it changed from 0.73 as i deleted that folder. all i know is they definitely felt much weaker in that battle. maybe just the reb general.

if it's true that generals do have that effect (never actually tested it) then maybe the combat stats need to be bigger for all units across the board to make a potential +10 from a a general a smaller proportion, if you see what i mean.

Or maybe i just suck with chariots :)

**Malrubius** · 03-21-2006, 12:57

The only post I've read from CA was JeromeGrasdyke's, that command stars give a bonus to attack for all his soldiers, and morale for only those units within his command radius, that radius being a function of the number of stars.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44549

**nikolai1962** · 03-21-2006, 13:14

Originally Posted by Malrubius

The only post I've read from CA was JeromeGrasdyke's, that command stars give a bonus to attack for all his soldiers, and morale for only those units within his command radius, that radius being a function of the number of stars.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44549

That was probably what i was remembering.

Oh well. Me sucking at chariots is quite a plausible explanation :)

**Spendios** · 03-21-2006, 13:15

Some times ago there was a poll about scythed chariots, so finally will there be still in EB or not ?

**nikolai1962** · 03-21-2006, 13:26

While i'm in a spamming mood i thought i'd mention two things i noticed yesterday.

1) Barb warcry seems to effect nearby units i.e if you have a second line unit using the warcry ability then the warcry icon of a unit fighting in the first line lights up. Something I spotted as i desperately tried to win an "even" battle on the 6th try.

2) Something i never noticed before. On the pre-battle screen the red/blue marker for showing the relative strangth of the two armies was pretty much 50/50. However when i entered the battle the red/blue marker was 3/4 red. The second marker was a far more accurate indication of what was about to happen

I only noticed this the 3rd or 4th time and i guess it was the influence of the enemy general being calculated more accurately or something. If I'd spotted it sooner maybe i wouldn't have got so cranky at my useless chariots.

**Gealai** · 03-21-2006, 17:52

Some good points so far

If you study Assyrian warfare you will notice the steady shift to cavalry starting from 900-850 BC. Constant warfare with Urartu - a mighty kingdom in the mountains near Lake Van - initiated the change. They were in close contact with the Cimmerians and Iranian horsetribes in the north and east, and were famous in Assur for their horses.

A Cimmerian (or Scythian?) army showed the King from Urartu clearly just how brutal masses of highly mobile horsearchers are against the fewer, less mobile missileplatforms of old, inflicting them a massive crushing defeat, which was reported by spies back to the assyrian King. So they and the Assyrians tried all they could to get good cavalry horses which could carry a men. After a hundred years armored horsemen with long spears sitting on good horses with armor started to show up...

One could also talk about chinese chariot warfare, however my time is running out...

**Ranika** · 03-21-2006, 11:57

Celtic chariots had a few purposes. One was to simply appear unnerving. The sound of a Celtic chariot was enhanced by various accoutrements, and the sound had a tendency to madden horses unaccustomed to it and make them bolt, and Romans often record being taken with fear to hear them approach just because it was so unnatural (mind you, it'd be mixed with the sound of singing Celtic soldiers and music as they approached).

The chariot in Celtic warfare survives in Britain, as Urnamma mentions, because no cavalry was present that could effectively supplant them (there was cavalry, but none that made the chariot totally uneffective). The chariot was used to dismantle a formation, in tandem with infantry; that is, you don't just use them to cut up a formation, you need the infantry there to rush into the breech you make right after, and it shouldn't be against light infantry (which could swarm over the chariots). Chariots can also be used for missile war, and the chariots will eventually have many javelins to use (javelins will be fairly nice in this respect; it'll keep them close to the melee without needing to engage directly unless wanted).

That said, the Casse aren't in their best position currently, unit wise. They're heavily reliant on morale modifiers, due to lower than normal morale; chariots are part of the army that raises allied morale; keeping them close to the melee has the value of both lowering enemy morale, and keeping allied morale up, which can give even poorly armored and armed units (of which the Casse have a multitude of) a substantial advantage over vastly superior units (like Roman legions or heavier Gallic infantry). However, the Casse will have more units that modify things; currently they already have Calawre, Rycalawre, and Cwmyr, which raise allied morale when near them, but they will also have naked spearmen (lower enemy infantry morale) and another heavy infantry or two depending on the region they control, which will also raise allied morale. Chariots may still need tweaked a bit to fight heavy infantry, but that's part of their purpose, and they may be tweaked to make them more useful there (and weaker against light troops if necessary).