Carthage overpowered?

[nemesisvsbrad]

My forces has been fighting Carthaginians for like 30 years but seems like neverending action. My only hope was to disrupt their Iberian recruitments which wouldn't be so easy. What I thought was that early in the game Carthage conquered Iberians, so now they have a strong base to wage war for so long. Another thing was they are able to train pretty tough guys and they are balancing their forces with Iberian hardy warriors to make a good fighting force. It seemed like I had better pull out of North Africa and return with Polybian legionnaires. Carthaginian assaults come wave after wave and their navy is busy transporting these would be dead army nonstop. Since Makedon declared war on me and I can't afford to fight on two fronts I was gonna abandon Carthago, Adrumeto and 2 other cities but after installing v0.7.4 that game work no more. That's good because Romans never retreat and I have a plan for Carthage on my next new campaign. Here it is.

As soon as I get Massaila, I am gonna support Iberians to terrorise Carthage cities in the area. When I have Sicily, I will blockade every Carthage ports to cut their income plus destroy their navy. Send spies to every Carthage cities to monitor their troop movements. When they are away to subdue some rebels my armies would land every coastal cities and take their major cities as quickly as they can. I dont want long wars with a particular nation so I need a good plan.

I think Carthage needs some tunedowns. I felt like doing the same thing forever. Sometimes I couldn't believe that they were sending 2 stacks at a time. Their generals need some tunedowns I think. Only 20 or 22 years old but they had 3 or 4 command stars.

Probably I am not a good player or it is supposed to be this though. Or Iberians can have 4 cities to start. That would help them to fight Carthage longer. Iberians were surrounded by Rebels and very difficult to expand.

When Sacred band shows up I guess Roman might find her true challenge. Or maybe Carthage needs more mercs instead of Iberian units. Those Iberian unit and Carthage spearmen combination is so effective that Romans having so much casualties.

Never been fighting a single faction this long since I had RTW. What other players think is interesting.

[stufer]

I am playing as the Romans too and am currently fighting the Second Punic war. The first war was easy - just captured Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and made peace. They didn't put up much of a fight.

But now I'm fighting in Iberia its a different matter. They have loads of good quality infantry - Elite African Pikes and Infantry plus those nasty little Iberian Assault guys.

So yeah I agree with you, Carthage are tough. However I don't think they are overpowered. This is the first time I have ever been challenged by Carthage in any mod. In RTR I would pick and choose what parts of the Carthaginian Empire I wanted then take them as I saw fit. Now Its about what I *can* take and when. And I have suffered some nasty defeats from them.

Remember that in the first 2 Punic wars in real life, it took Rome the best part of 20 years in both instances to achieve victory.

I think for the first time in RTW, EB has got it just about right.

I think your plan sounds fine. It should work. Definatley take as much as possible at once - don't give them a chance to recover (there's nothing more dangerous than a wounded Carthaginian!).

In my game I decided to leave Africa altogether for the time being. The reason is that the last time I went there I got into all kinds of difficulty with the Ptolemaic Empire along with a front in Iberia and Gaul. Plus the Carthaginian towns in North Africa I did capture kept on rebelling back to their former masters. It was too much for my poor legions.

This time round I'm going to pursue them out of Iberia then make peace. Maybe attack Greece next.

Good luck and good hunting to you.

[orwell]

The fact that carthage sounds over powered is interesting. In playing RTR, I've never lost, a few setbacks, but I was never punished for a defeat or tactical blunder. Are other factions overpowered as well?

[Trithemius]

The fact that carthage sounds over powered is interesting. In playing RTR, I've never lost, a few setbacks, but I was never punished for a defeat or tactical blunder. Are other factions overpowered as well?

If all the factions are powerful, then they are balanced. :)

Note that I don't think that the EB factions are "overpowered" or even "powerful" compared to their neighbours since people on M/M have reported being given problems by Eleutheroi (independent/rebel) stacks and settlements.

[abou]

Right now in the game I just started, which is also my first in EB, Carthage is most certainly a powerhouse; one that I do not know how to defeat. As the Romani, I am having a very hard time building the powerhouse economy other players have talked about and the need to rotate troops for retraining is hurting me. I just managed to defeat a very large Carthaginian force at Syracuse and Messana, but I cannot afford to expand to the north past Segesta or into Lilibeo.

Despite all of this, Carthage has expaned all the way south into the Sahara and a little into the independent pronvinces of Egypt. Furthermore, I am the only faction they are at war with in contradiction to what I thought would be an expansionist Ptolomaioi (somehow with the Seleukids as a protectorate).



PS - Oh yeah, first post. The mod is really cool by the way.

[john289]

I beat Carthage pretty easily just by doing some quick raids against them. Since nearly all of their important settlements are coastal, I just took an undefended settlement, exterminated it down to 400, destroyed all the buildings, and gave it to pontos or some other insignificant Eastern nation, they would hold onto it long enough so that when i actually WANTED to take it, i would stroll in with the city undefended and set up shop.

[abou]

Well crap, I just won a major heroic victory in Siciliy, which left Lilbeo almost undefended, and once I return to the campaign map it crashed... twice - so two heroic victories in a row wasted. I also managed to kill two Carthaginian family members.

I think my campaign is done since I cannot get past this battle without the crash and I don't really feel like not having the battle since it is too critical to further improvement in Sicily. Oh well, lessons learned can just be applied to the next campaign.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Was it a crash that occurred while you had a reinforcing army? If it did (I would suspect it did) then just merge your troops and attack with just one army. That will probably solve the problem.

[the_handsome_viking]

I personally like the factions being tough, I've recently been holding on for dear life fighting against the Arverni and the Romans after I lost my main army in a really bad siege that went totally wrong and resulted in my 1000+ army getting decimated.

Big overly long drawn out wars are what makes this mod worth while, everyone enjoys getting their asses semi-kicked in games.

I'm just about to destroy the Arverni, the Romans are invading, I quite like this situation because the Romans are extremely tough.

I hope that Carthage is as tough as you say it is.

[Gealai]

On their hometurf in Northern Africa and in Iberia, where they can rely heavily on their finest units they pose a challange. Finally.

[abou]

Was it a crash that occurred while you had a reinforcing army? If it did (I would suspect it did) then just merge your troops and attack with just one army. That will probably solve the problem.

Actually, it was the Carthaginians who had the reinforcments. Does that cause the same crash that I've been reading about?

Edit: Apparently, it can. If it also helps, I had no family members/generals, but there was one Carthaginian family member for each army - two stacks against my one.

[GodEmperorLeto]

I think the Carthaginians are absolutely perfect!

I have never had such a strategic challenge in a wargame in my life. In previous Total War games, I would cheat often either out of boredom, or because it was on such a hard setting, I felt I needed half a chance.

Now, I don't cheat at all (God, I must sound like a TV advertisement: "Thanks EB! You changed my life!").

Carthage got the drop on me, nearly grabbing Rhegion. But I rallied, and wiped out two huge Carthaginian armies in two epic battles that left me on the edge of my seat! Now I've grabbed Lilybaeum, Corsica and Sardinia, and have a massive Carthaginian army bottled up in Messana (Syracuse is still independent). My army is exhausted and in need of replenishment, and the war at sea is costing me a great deal of money.

But I'm winning! And its on VH/H. Nevertheless, I don't feel overwhelmed. Just challenged! After winning an incredible battle on a hill in central Sicily, slaughtering 3500 Carthaginians and mercenaries while outnumbered 3:1, and only losing about 150 Romans, I felt like The Man. I had won a terrific victory, and I had been forced to devise a darn good plan, and my timing had to be perfect with everything.

Wow, all this talking about my little Punic War has got me in the mood to play some more.

[Spartiate]

Not over-powered but defineately a challenge.

In my game as the Romani i eventually captured all the settlements of Carthage with the exception of 3 provinces they control in the sahara region.I felt the effort wasn't worth it and besides the Avernii have now started attacking northern Italy and Macedon have just stabbed me in the back.

See........i made a fatal mistake it seems.I didn't realise that Macedon was as powerful as it in fact is.I have a long supply line down the Adriatic coast to my all the former Epirote cities of Greece and Macedon have just decided it was too tempting a target what with my having just one family member with a full stack in the whole area.A dozen battles later and the family member is dead and despite the huge casualties inflicted on the Macedonians they still have maybe 6 full stacks in the area and are now rolling up the coast towards nothern Italy.

Now for my truely big mistake.I pull my veteran stacks bar one out of Africa and head for Italy and Greece and no sooner am i embroiled in a monster war with Macedon(where ARE those stacks coming from) than Egypt decides to attack Lepki.

Oh..........and what is this i see?Could this be 3 stacks of Carthagenian troops coming out of the Sahara?................oh it is.

Great mod and great challenge.Just at the point in a vanilla campaign when you would be quiting from boredom EB kicks you in the crotch.Now i'm off to get ice........

[Urnamma]

I beat Carthage pretty easily just by doing some quick raids against them. Since nearly all of their important settlements are coastal, I just took an undefended settlement, exterminated it down to 400, destroyed all the buildings, and gave it to pontos or some other insignificant Eastern nation, they would hold onto it long enough so that when i actually WANTED to take it, i would stroll in with the city undefended and set up shop.

This is, I think, a rather silly way to play. Try roleplaying a little bit, and try to make the game behave like real civilizations. Nobdody takes something over and then says 'well, you guys, from 2,000 miles away, you take it for a bit'.

[Urnamma]

Not over-powered but defineately a challenge.

In my game as the Romani i eventually captured all the settlements of Carthage with the exception of 3 provinces they control in the sahara region.I felt the effort wasn't worth it and besides the Avernii have now started attacking northern Italy and Macedon have just stabbed me in the back.

See........i made a fatal mistake it seems.I didn't realise that Macedon was as powerful as it in fact is.I have a long supply line down the Adriatic coast to my all the former Epirote cities of Greece and Macedon have just decided it was too tempting a target what with my having just one family member with a full stack in the whole area.A dozen battles later and the family member is dead and despite the huge casualties inflicted on the Macedonians they still have maybe 6 full stacks in the area and are now rolling up the coast towards nothern Italy.

Now for my truely big mistake.I pull my veteran stacks bar one out of Africa and head for Italy and Greece and no sooner am i embroiled in a monster war with Macedon(where ARE those stacks coming from) than Egypt decides to attack Lepki.

Oh..........and what is this i see?Could this be 3 stacks of Carthagenian troops coming out of the Sahara?................oh it is.

Great mod and great challenge.Just at the point in a vanilla campaign when you would be quiting from boredom EB kicks you in the crotch.Now i'm off to get ice........

You're making me want to play it and stop modding it for a while. Don't do that ;)

[Samurai Waki]

Carthage rocks in EB, and gives them the deserved credit of being a true superpower like they were IRL. I have had sooo many battles against Carthage its unbelievable, taking Carthage controlled parts of Spain was definantly no easy task, and I only defeated them there because of my Iberian Allies.

[GodEmperorLeto]

This is, I think, a rather silly way to play. Try roleplaying a little bit, and try to make the game behave like real civilizations. Nobdody takes something over and then says 'well, you guys, from 2,000 miles away, you take it for a bit'.

Actually, I was honestly thinking of doing that with Syracuse. I've been considering giving it to the allied Greeks as an alliance bargaining chip or something, then grabbing it back when I decide the time is right to whomp them. But that's not quite the same as giving it to the landlocked Yuezhi or the Britons. The Greeks were navally capable, and since Athens made a try for Syracuse, it's not unbelievable.

It's all about plans within plans, as Piter deVries might have said.

[BigTex]

Well crap, I just won a major heroic victory in Siciliy, which left Lilbeo almost undefended, and once I return to the campaign map it crashed... twice - so two heroic victories in a row wasted. I also managed to kill two Carthaginian family members.

This is what has happened to me in any battle like that. Whenever I win a battle near a city, one that would normally leave the city undefended and allow you to just stroll in. I crash, but only when its against a faction and not eluthorio. Its never failed to crash for me. Its caused some real problems, many wasted heroic victorys on VH to that bug. Its one of those grit your teath and play some America's Army bugs.

Carthage isnt overpowered, the places were you can recruit our solid troops are small. Africans in africa, iberian in spain, it poses huge logistical problems. Makes for an interesting game as them. When playing as them their quick powerful armies pose interesting situations.

[john289]

This is, I think, a rather silly way to play. Try roleplaying a little bit, and try to make the game behave like real civilizations. Nobdody takes something over and then says 'well, you guys, from 2,000 miles away, you take it for a bit'.

I don't think so. I roleplayed it just fine, my general raided in coordination with orders from his father, the Verrix who set us up for victory through diplomatic intrigue

Really I didn't think that taking Spain/Sicily/Corsica and Sardinia from Carthage and giving the city itself to the Ptolemies(who also happened to be at war with Carthage) to be that unrealistic, when the Allies conquered Germany they did divide it up into four zones

[stufer]

Its really nice to see that most people are finding them to be a challenge to fight. I was thinking that maybe my generalship was not as good as I had thought.

Someone mentioned the troubles they have had fighting them in Iberia and I have to concur with that. Big armies full of elite troops and some really well defended strong-holds. Seriously, they have all of their Iberian cities with stone walls and at least 1000 defenders. Absolutely no way am I going to assault these places. Mainly because I'm role-playing my general down there and after his last epic battle he's become a recluse. I like to think of him as having seen too much horror and now he can't bare to waste his troops on pointless attacks.
I was trying to get a triumph for this guy but now I think he may not have enough Influence (recluse gives a minus 3 influence hit i think). But that's cool because I can't see him wanting to be paraded around Rome now. I think when the war ends I'll have him become the Governor of Iberia and end his days there. I was really impressed about the Recluse thing kicking in directly after the most decisive and bloody battle of the war (I beleive thanks should go to Malrubius for the amazing traits - Cheers mate).

Anyway I digress. Like someone above me pointed out, I couldn't have been successful without the help from my Iberian allies.

Without a doubt this is the best campaign I have played.

[pezhetairoi]

Qarthadast has not come close to being a challenge yet to me, because while tactically and qualitatively their units are awesome to face, strategically on M/M they are babies. The only army that stood a chance of actually annihilating me, a fullstack of iberian assault, general's cav, curisii, elite africans pikes and leebifeenikim, split itself up three ways to defend Baikor, Sucummurgi and Gader after my very vengeful Roman fullstack threatened all three simultaneously during my Second Punic War, and so they got thrashed in three piecemeal battles. I haven't touched Africa yet, but I foresee some challenges.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Making peace with Carthage was a horror. After I grabbed Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica from them, they decided to starve me out of Italy by blockading all of my ports. Considering my fleet was really small, it was annihilated quickly. I had to sit and watch my treasury melt away and my cities riot for two full years before they would finally accept the loss of the three islands and accept my terms (which had been whittled down to simply "Ceasefire").

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Wow, that actually sounds really cool. Nice to see posts like these - not that long, but with something interesting the AI did.

[hsimoorb]

I have to say, going up against a strong carthage is generaly pleasing. But I think they're Elite African troops are overpowered. They'd be fine by themselves, but the AI spams them into armies of nothing but uber legionary infantry. They should cost alot more if they're going to be as powerful as they are.

But of coarse, not too weak that carthage folds like it always does in other mods.

[QwertyMIDX]

They already cost over 2200 for a unit of 80...

[hsimoorb]

That didn't stop carthage raising 3 full stacks of them in my campaign.

[Keba]

Try playing against Rome ... I had to fight my way through five or so stacks of Early Triarii ... an absolute nightmare.

It is a shame there is no way to encourage the AI to field proper armies, not the RTS style all elite.

[Chuffy]

Carthage are definately powerful in EB, I think it mainly stems from the Numidians not being in. In RTR I found playing as Carthage extremely challenging and hard, mainly because Rome was overpowered and Iberia controlled lots of cities but also because there was the unpredictable Numidian element. In EB, Iberia does not control that many cities and the Carthies don't have to worry about being backstabbed by the Numidians while fighting the Romans.

Plus they have overpowered generals cavalry.

[Slider6977]

General's bodyguards overpowered?(yeah probably ) But first, I just think that reflects how vastly superior Carthaginian cavalry is compared to Roman cavalry. In fact, I feel Iberian heavy cavalry are a little underpowered considering their historical toughness. The problem is not the units though, it is, as has been stated already, the AI. They will spam certain units, which is virtually the same for every faction. If you attack a powerful faction, expect to come up against full stacks of very good troops. Of course, you would like to see variety, but that is the limit of this game.

Personally I love playing Carthage. Powerful units, but expensive. You must spend wisely, but once the money starts flowing, it gets a little easier. Which is the same as Rome for the most part. Expect a fight, no matter which faction you chose. Cause you must remember that these two nations were the most powerful at the time this game is set. With the successor states fighting each other, and northern tribes historically not expanding, the mediterranean belonged to Rome and Carthage. And they fought for many years. So from a historical standpoint (and this is supposed to be a historical/realistic game), and a game standpoint, neither one of these factions should be pushovers. Not overpowered, but a challenge, just like most of the factions.

On a side note, a quick questions: anyone playing as carthage every have Rome attack Corsica and Sardinia. It seems in my games that their fleet is broken, and virtually never attack my islands in the north, only (occasionally) in Sicily.

[abou]

I have found that Carthage does little to develop her navy, but the military yards at Qart-hadast are well developed - so there is your chance. After quickly taking it and defending it with a solid garrison, start building ships and blockade their ports, every other one, all the way to Iberia. Make sure you follow those trade routes on the map to get the right ones to maximize the efficiency rather than hitting every port - this also means you have adequate ships for defense in case any enemy fleet is around that you missed.

Due to unit upkeep costs such as elephants, Elite African Infantry, etc. after a few years of blockade, Carthage's finances are in the negative and their possession of the Sahara only hurts them, which means no retraining of beat-up units. With time and troop cycling you can beat them down or better yet, grab Ippone and start training elephants to smash them.