"Give me your tired, your poor..."

[Banquo's Ghost]

I’m on the other side of the Celtic Sea at the moment and got the chance to watch a fascinating documentary on the More4 channel about Russia. (I know the country well, having worked there many times, and my wife is Russian, so we have an interest in its future).

There’s some facts from the programme here –http://www.channel4.com/more4/docume...ture.jsp?id=43 maybe it will provoke an interesting thread of its own (which is why I thought this might belong in the Backroom). I wanted to use an element of the programme to highlight a little recognised attribute of the USA – her generosity of spirit, still strong.

The Mehzet Turks are a persecuted people that have been displaced into the Krasnodar region of southern Russia. I have encountered Russian racism on many occasions, but the plight of these people – Muslim outsiders – was deeply moving. Self-styled ‘Cossacks’ who used rampant nationalism to justify horrific attacks were in control of the region and encouraged/employed by the authorities, just as in Imperial times. (Tsar Vladimir has a personal bodyguard made up of these nutters). In the worst insult to their countrymen possible, these brutes had copies of Mein Kampf on their shelves, and gave Hitler salutes to the camera.

The Turks were trapped, but, and this is the point of my post, they revealed that they had been given permission to emigrate to the USA by the American government. All 30,000 of them. As one woman said, “We have done nothing for the Americans, yet they welcome us. Our own people try to kill us.” They did not want to leave their homes, but it looks like they have no choice.

This touched my heart. For two hundred years, the US welcomed the refugees of my own homeland escaping from the persecutions of the British. Several of my own ancestors were kept safe in the Land of the Free – before they returned to free our own home.

It’s heart-warming to see that the USA still welcomes the poor and persecuted. Maybe one day, the administration will treat Putin with the contempt and international isolation he deserves. Worry less about Iran and more about a brutally nationalistic, nuclear-armed Russia dying on its feet.

If I may say: God Bless America.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Its very good that these people can go to America there should always be room in western nations for people fleeing persecution, and it seems that in America at least there is.

[The_Doctor]

I saw that program.

I did not know Russia was in such a mess. A falling birth rate, lots of poeple dieing, AIDs, racists, these new "Boyars" taking over everything.

The USA might not be perfect, but it does sometimes do good things.

[BigTex]

Its often nice to see the world recognize U.S.A.'s generousity and kind spirit every once in awhile. There are few countrys who would have even thought to do this and its a good thing to see that our ideals are not dead. Yeah Ceaser Putin with all those nukes is a scary thought.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

God bless the United States of America

[rory_20_uk]

Putin is a very clever man who bases desicions on reality. He's yet to attack outsiders, so I think worrying about his nukes is not the world's greatest problem.

If we were to isolate all countries that were persecuting their own people how many countries would be left? The middle and far east are mostly out, Africa is a write off, and one could argue that the Native Americans havn't got the best of deals. Australia has the aboriginies, so that leaves some bits of Europe - except for France, some parts of Eastern Europe...

For such a seemingly immotive act it is odd that nothing at all has been mentioned about this in the media. Could it be the populace of America might not be too thrilled about 30,000 more muslims making thie way over there? Loads of the will have to - guantanamo isn't that big...

[Kanamori]

In the US, there is not the same tension between muslims and the native populace as there is here, mostly.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Putin is a very clever man who bases desicions on reality. He's yet to attack outsiders, so I think worrying about his nukes is not the world's greatest problem

You're quite right, it's not Putin the West has to worry about - he's way too clever - but the conditions he is creating in his country for whoever comes next.

There are a lot of very nasty nationalists vying for power right now. As the Russian economy dies along with her people, foreign adventures become diversions for miserable people. Nationalism as a substitute for human rights and bread has been historically a bad thing. Putin's autocracy is creating all the right conditions for a new dictator.

Remember, the president before Putin was Boris Yeltsin, a bumbling drunk. Can you imagine a new president, with all the powers Putin has brought to himself, sozzled on vodka, fired by notions of the Glorious Russian Empire, and his finger on the button of the outdated, but very considerable nuclear arsenal?

Because we're not that far away from this scenario.

[Al Khalifah]

The Turks were trapped, but, and this is the point of my post, they revealed that they had been given permission to emigrate to the USA by the American government. All 30,000 of them. As one woman said, “We have done nothing for the Americans, yet they welcome us. Our own people try to kill us.” They did not want to leave their homes, but it looks like they have no choice.

I did not watch the programme.
You say these people had been given permission to emigrate to the United States, did the programme mention how they are supposed to get there?

I thought that the US was bound not to assist in the forced movement of people and hence assisting in ethnic cleansing.

[BelgradeWar]

Russia is a country which has problems that cannot be explained in such a simplistic manner. The roots are much deeper than nationalism. Of course, nationalism is a problem, but it is usual for a formerly important country that abruptly came to a international backwater. The Jews have a curse that pretty much explains it - "May the God make you very rich, and then very poor". Russia is a country in transition, and all the symptoms mentioned above - criminal on the rise, AIDS, nationalism becuse of the general poverty that is a phase towards new economy and such and such are common in many countries that face transition. The problem is that Russia is the biggest country in the world, with extremely big army (still) and still the most ADVANCED one in some areas (obsolete nukes? check again...keyword: Topol-M), so their problems can make much more consequences on a large scale. It's rather benign example but look at Chelsea FC.
Now, Krasnodar and similar areas are places with very long history of conflict. This isn't Putin's whim. Chechnya isn't a whim. Americans only tend to look 1-3 years into history. Cossacks have crashed and burned through these areas for centuries. It's just that the surroundings are adequate for a big comeback.

What's the solution? Time is. Once, all these phases will eventually pass. The point is that meddling with Russian militarily is NOT a good solution. Economic and cultural means are much more adequate.

[GoreBag]

I'm wondering if all 30 000 people will be allowed to settle in single area and hence create one of those terrible, ugly, monstrous culture pockets that all true and virtuous Americans despise.

[Kanamori]

Well, tons of Hmong people have settled in the mid-west, Wisconsin and Minnesota really, and have 'created a cultural pocket' except that it's give and take from both cultures. Where I'm from at least, people pride cultural diversity that is within the law.

[Samurai Waki]

I don't mind the Russians or former soviet state immigrants at all really. Yes, they do have pocket cultures, but that has been an on going trend since the beginning. The Irish and Italians are probably the largest two, and while there are still cultural pockets that exist, it is much diminished. I mean, say you have just got off the boat, into a land that you are not familiar with, are you more likely to join other expatriates from your homeland, or those from another, or just dive into mainstream? The obvious answer is that you'll most likely join other first generation Americans in a community, because you can relate to their plight. However, after a time, those communities begin to dissolve, the purpose of their struggle, or plight because void and they join the greater community of Americans, it took the Italians about 3 generations to do that, and the Irish about 2, and these are westerners. I feel that the Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners will not totally conform until about 5 generations. It is obvious though, that peoples from the west have an easier time integrating, such as the Russians, whereas ten years ago they were looked upon as outsiders, and violent as well, now the interest has gone away, while there are still communities left and will be for some time, it will not take long for them to dissolve. When there Children have Children...in say 10-20 more years, the Russian community will not be as unique or stand-outish as it is now. Of course, there will always be cultural influences that will affect them, but they will be looked upon, and they will feel less Russian, and more American. The United States is a bastion of hope, and freedom, but more importantly it is looked upon as a bastion of being able to make one's way into the world, in their former countries all their hard work and toil was just another day, and you'd be thankful you are still alive, but in the USA another day of hard work and toil means one more step to true freedom, and living out the rest of your days in comfort.

[GoreBag]

I don't mind the Russians or former soviet state immigrants at all really. Yes, they do have pocket cultures, but that has been an on going trend since the beginning. The Irish and Italians are probably the largest two, and while there are still cultural pockets that exist, it is much diminished. I mean, say you have just got off the boat, into a land that you are not familiar with, are you more likely to join other expatriates from your homeland, or those from another, or just dive into mainstream? The obvious answer is that you'll most likely join other first generation Americans in a community, because you can relate to their plight. However, after a time, those communities begin to dissolve, the purpose of their struggle, or plight because void and they join the greater community of Americans, it took the Italians about 3 generations to do that, and the Irish about 2, and these are westerners. I feel that the Asians, Indians, and Middle Easterners will not totally conform until about 5 generations. It is obvious though, that peoples from the west have an easier time integrating, such as the Russians, whereas ten years ago they were looked upon as outsiders, and violent as well, now the interest has gone away, while there are still communities left and will be for some time, it will not take long for them to dissolve. When there Children have Children...in say 10-20 more years, the Russian community will not be as unique or stand-outish as it is now. Of course, there will always be cultural influences that will affect them, but they will be looked upon, and they will feel less Russian, and more American. The United States is a bastion of hope, and freedom, but more importantly it is looked upon as a bastion of being able to make one's way into the world, in their former countries all their hard work and toil was just another day, and you'd be thankful you are still alive, but in the USA another day of hard work and toil means one more step to true freedom, and living out the rest of your days in comfort.

And the Native Americans, as I have said in a previous post, are not persecuted so get your facts straight before you blindly throw them out.

Actually, it takes about 3 generations for just about every culture to assimilate itself, but it can be stretched out by more and more arrivals of the same parent culture, where a 1st generation immigrant might meet a 3rd generation immigrant and begin a process of re-immersion once they've spent time together in the community.

And yeah, Native Americans are persecuted. Where are they not?

[Samurai Waki]

EVERYWHERE!!!! The Native Americans have the right to leave their god forsaken Reservations anytime they want too, they don't have to pay taxes, they have their own laws within the reservations, and they don't have to work if they don't want too, they have free living, get free government paychecks every month and can spend it on whatever they want, they can go to college for free, and eat for free. Yeah, thats persecution... they have it sooo bad. The Natives don't ever say anything that warrants them as being persecuted, because if they do decide that, that may cause them to lose all of their well being, they know they aren't being persecuted, we're trying to make reparations for all the terrible things we've done to them, even though I wasn't alive or really anyone else was alive when it all happened.

[BigTex]

Originally posted by GoreBag
I'm wondering if all 30 000 people will be allowed to settle in single area and hence create one of those terrible, ugly, monstrous culture pockets that all true and virtuous Americans despise.

Disgusting generalization, I havent met a single U.S. citizen who thinks places like china town and other "culture pockets" are terrible and monstrous. Those "culture pockets" as you like to call them have leant to making the U.S.A. such a diverse, interesting, and wonderful place to live. Hell in Texas we even have a couple towns settled by germans, that still maintain a heavy german populous. The original builder of the worlds largest water park was a Texas-german (the slchighterbahn sp). Almost every United States citizen has relatives or was an immigrant at some point.

Where in the world do you live that the Native Americans are persecuted? Last I checked most of them were rolling in money from the casino's. They live in an almost entirely separate government on their reservations. They have their own laws, courts, schools, infrastructure. They may have once been persecuted in the 1800's but they are far from being persecuted now. Absolutely disgusting generalizations.

[GoreBag]

Disgusting generalization, I havent met a single U.S. citizen who thinks places like china town and other "culture pockets" are terrible and monstrous. Those "culture pockets" as you like to call them have leant to making the U.S.A. such a diverse, interesting, and wonderful place to live. Hell in Texas we even have a couple towns settled by germans, that still maintane a heavy german populous. The original builder of the worlds largest water park was a Texas-german (the slchighterbahn sp). Almost every United States citizen has relatives or was an immigrant at some point.

Where in the world do you live that the Native Americans are persecuted? Last I checked most of them were rolling in money from the casino's.

It was a facetious comment, bud. But I guess you haven't read Divinus Arma's thoughts on the subject.

Last I checked, the money that they were getting from the casinos was being capped off and limited, even though that money is going straight back to their tribe.

Hey, Wakizashi, maybe they don't want reservations, cheap liquor, cigarettes and special treatment. Maybe they just want their land back.

[Reenk Roink]

Yeah, those Native Americans have it great...

They are after all, lucky to be alive, they are the survivors of their race.

The casinos are great too, too bad they lead to the severe gambling and alcoholism prevalent in their society, which in turns leads to a much higher suicide rate among them...

[Samurai Waki]

Maybe the Greeks should get all of their former lands back? or perhaps the Iranians should get all of their land back...or the Egyptians...or the Mongols...or the Turks. Its not going to happen, ever, and thats hardly persecution. Native Americans represent less than 1% of the total population of the US, and not too mention, its already been so far off that I consider myself a native American, my grandparents, and my great grandparents also consider themselves native americans because America is our native country. If you can't let go of the past, don't ridicule the people that had nothing to do with it.

[Divinus Arma]

Gorebag, you are a funny dude. But you are also right. I'll bet that they wil settle into poverty and spread their filth into the surrounding community. Just what we need: More uneducated freeloaders.



Whatever, Good for us. yay. Actually, I'll bet they will assimilate successfully and encourage their children to take advantage of education. It is my personal guess that the children of these immigrants will, mostly, be highly educated and properous. Welcome to America! Now get in line. Your welfare checks are awaitin' until you get that job at Mickie D's.


Man, I am such a bastard.

heh heh.


I'll tell you guys a little story on the matter since I am such an ethnocentric hate-monger. I once knew a young man who had emigrated here from Sri Lanka. The fella was under 30. He owned multiple 7-11s and ATM machines. He had cash coming out of his arse. I was at his house and we were all drinking when we went outside from some manly convo. In his drunkness, he expressed how much he loved America and how it truly is the land of opportunity. He spoke pretty good english, but was knowledgeable about our history and our political process. He came here with nothing and worked his butt off to make his way at a young age. He is a TRUE AMERICAN. I wish every American showed the same enthusiasm and passion for his country that he did. Guess what? I despise freeloading secular progressive American Citizens just as much as illegal immigrants! I like folks who work. Who love America. Who believe in the values that founded this country. You have immigrants like that? I want 'em. Come over in boatloads! But pick up a damn book, learn the language, learn about this little piece of land, and get your butt to work.

[Strike For The South]

Yeah, those Native Americans have it great...

They are after all, lucky to be alive, they are the survivors of their race.

The casinos are great too, too bad they lead to the severe gambling and alcoholism prevalent in their society, which in turns leads to a much higher suicide rate among them...

Pfft The Indians were at our throat just as much. We had better weapons technolgy and immune systems we won get over it. Indians get to many damn perks

[Reenk Roink]

Pfft The Indians were at our throat just as much. We had better weapons technolgy and immune systems we won

I'm not talking about the wars STFS, that matter was settled by conquest. I'm talking about the current status of the Native Americans...

..severe gambling and alcoholism prevalent in their society, which in turns leads to a much higher suicide rate among them...

But I guess being able to hunt certain rare birds and smoke peyote makes up for that...

[solypsist]

i see a lot of hate, people-bashing and no discussion going on here. gotta say it's time to nip this thread in the bud.