Reinforcement battles - to CTD or not to CTD

[khelvan]

Ok, this is the last major CTD we have to handle, and right now we haven't a clue as to what is causing it. We're trying to gather data on how and when it happens, so please post your reinforcement CTDs here, with the following information:

1) Factions - (Yours/Theirs)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle? Rally? Open field? Bridge? Fort? Where and when (winter?) did it happen?
3) Leaders - Were they captains, generals, or family members?
4) Outcome - Level of victory/defeat, did any defeated stacks survive? How many units remained?
5) Positioning - Were any of the stacks standing on siege graphics? On a land bridge? On a river crossing?
6) Version - EB Version (v.72, v.73a, v.74)
7) Traits - Does the traits file found right here affect the CTD?
8) Screen shots - If possible, please provide screen shots so we can see things like the units in each army, what year it was, whether there was a general, etc.
9) Save game - If possible, please use a free file hosting service, such as Yousendit, to give us the opportunity to test it.

Also, we're looking for information on reinforcement battles which happen without CTDs.

If you have, please post here with the pertinent facts:

1) Factions - (Yours/Theirs)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle? Rally? Open field? Bridge? Fort? Where and when (winter?) did it happen?
3) Leaders - Were they captains, generals, or family members?
4) Outcome - Level of victory/defeat, did any defeated stacks survive? How many units remained?
5) Positioning - Were any of the stacks standing on siege graphics? On a land bridge? On a river crossing?
6) Version - EB Version (v.72, v.73a, v.74)
7) Screen shots - If possible, please provide screen shots so we can see things like the units in each army, what year it was, whether there was a general, etc.
8) Save game - If possible, please use a free file hosting service, such as Yousendit, to give us the opportunity to test it.

Gathering this data will allow us to find correlations between various things happening, and the outcome.

Thanks for your help!

[Moros]

Well 0.72 Doesn't seem to have the problem at least not with my version. (tough that one might not be modified a bit.) I've played with the Semeucids this weekend and I4ve played a lot of battles where I played with 2 to 2.5 full stacks against 2-5 Egyptian army's (most of them were medium sized). Tough I'm not sure if there were any family members in the Ptolemy armies since every general I see gets killes within at least 3 turns. (I've got 3 assasins with at least 9 agent's skill and a few more. I wander what will happen if I've killed al the family members?)

anyway I've played so many battles with even more then 5 armies as reinforcements so I can't imagine that there are any problems in 0.72 or my version is modified so that the bug has gone away. (I've downloaded a few traits updates and other changes so that might explain?)

[jockey]

1) Factions - Romani (mine)/ Makedonia (AI)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle (where my besieging army was attacked by an enemy relieving force, not a sally): once in Epidamnos, the second time in Corinth; the prior was in Winter, the latter was in Summer, 242 BC.
3) Leaders - Both times I had a family member and was attacked by a mix of enemy family members and captains- both times the family members instigated the attack on me.
4) Outcome - Both times I had heroic victories (ofcourse...) with very few enemies remaining, perhaps a couple of hundred each time? (on huge settings)
5) Positioning - The enemy stack was on a siege graphic (it was a relieving force- I was never attacked from the city)
6) Version - EB Version v.74

I'm afraid I cannot take a screenshot, but the army make up was, basically,: Romani- two generals, two sets of Rorarii, Accensi, Hastati, Principe and Triarii, and one equites Romani (with the addition in the second battle of two Samnite Spearmen); Makedonian- pretty much a varied mix of phalanx types and pelstati, with some thessolonikan cavalry and general's bodyguards.

[Kull]

Before being combined, there were/are two threads on this topic:

1) The Non-CTD Reinforcement Battles thread

2) The CTD Reinforcement Battles thread

[khelvan]

Why following the steps and giving us this information is important:

Thousands of you have downloaded this mod. Hundreds of you have given us your feedback (most of it positive) about how the mod plays. A very small subset of you actively follow any given request for testing/steps used to test and report for specific things.

The purpose of releasing this Open Beta was not for the feedback to tell us if you like the mod, though we certainly appreciate that many of you do. The purpose of releasing it as a beta was that we knew we could not track down the source of problems without your help, and so we needed a large group of testers to help us. This reinforcement CTD is an example of why.

Because we can't find the source of this problem, we must gather data on how and when it happens, and find similarities in the data. We also have steps that you can go through to rule out various things for us, such as using the neutered traits file.

However, the trend has been that a great many of you love to play the game, but we have far more people demanding that we fix various things than we do people willing to go through the steps we ask for which are necessary for us to actually fix them. Not everyone falls under this category, but enough do that it makes an impression. Remember, this beta was released so that we can get the specific, structured feedback which we need so that you can play this mod without CTDs and other bugs that affect gameplay.

If people just -play- the mod, and won't join our structured tests, we can't improve the mod, and we might as well not have beta versions up for download.

So please, follow the above steps, and help us. If you can't do the screenshots or savegame uploads, at least follow the other steps. With your help we can find this bug, without it everyone will continue to crash to desktop.

Thank you.

[jockey]

I'm not sure if that was directed at my feedback or not, Khevlan, but I have something more substantial to report anyway. I apologise if my last report was... lacking.

I retried the battle with the character traits file and found that, with the same heroic victory outcome and the same scenario of battle, I avoided the CTD. I was then attacked again after that battle, in the same turn, again winning a heroic victory, and again avoided the CTD.

I hope that helps some more, if you like I can send you the save game.

[khelvan]

No, that was a general message. I was inspired by several posts demanding that we fix the reinforcement CTD immediately. As this bug is a source of frustration for us, we of course have tried to fix it, and having posts implying that we aren't paying attention to it is, at times, troublesome for us.

Thank you, the traits issue seems to be a recurring theme. I think we will have to examine the traits file in depth now. As I am not a member of the traits team, this is a little chilling for me; I hope it is a problem with a specific trait, and not with the way we are handling traits in general.

[Alleycat]

everytime I have a battle w/ cpu reinforcements I just save it and play the battle. If it ctd's , I swap in the nuetered traits and reload the game. Its solves the problem every time. I've probably done this like 25 times now. Then I exit the game and put in the normal traits or else I get new family members w/ no personality. Given that this solves the problem every time, I don't see the point in writing down the info of every reinforcement ctd unless the questions are geared toward finding which trait is being triggered based on battle circumstances. I know this attitude makes me a bad beta tester but I'm willing to live with that.

[khelvan]

No, the fact that 25 battles have been solved with the neutered traits file is indication enough. I haven't asked for help in trying to figure out what trait it is, and wouldn't expect you to, as that is a little more in-depth than reporting the circumstances of a battle.

However, it would be useful to know, at least, if you had captains only in those battles, generals, or both. That shouldn't be too much trouble.

Thanks!

[PseRamesses]

Before being combined, there were/are two threads on this topic:
1) The Non-CTD Reinforcement Battles thread
2) The CTD Reinforcement Battles thread

Three threads on the topic: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=62110

[Alleycat]

In terms of the cpu, theres been every combination. I usually have a general. I won't get a chance to play till thursday but im about to start a situation where I could run around w/ out a gereral and probably get into a lot of reinforcment ctd's (KH beach landing against pontus and armenia). I'll do two different versions w/ and w/o general...let you know what happens.

[Masy]

1) Factions - (Rome/Carthage)
2) Circumstances - Siege battle : enemy stack attacked my beseiging forces. Outside Kart Hadast and in Autumn
3) Leaders - Mine was a family member (Cotta, the original), beseiged was Carthage family member(Mago) , attacking stack was captain.
4) Outcome - Heroic Victory, only small portion of attacking stack fled, those in beseiged were all killed.
5) Positioning - Beseiged army were in city.
6) Version - EB Version v.73a
7) Traits - CTD was unnafected by trait file, i just withdrew upon reloading the 5th time :(
8) Sorry no screenshot, happened a while ago.
9) Again, a wee while ago so no saves.

[khelvan]

7) Traits - CTD was unnafected by trait file, i just withdrew upon reloading the 5th time :(

Does this mean you used the empty traits file and you still got a CTD, or you didn't test it?

[Masy]

I used trait file after reloading and fighting 4 times (twice with background script off, i still got CTD). Still crashed upon using trait file. Hope this helps.

[Malrubius]

@Masy: Could you zip up your savegame and email it to malrubius@europabarbarorum.com ?

Thanks!

[Malrubius]

Ok, until I can find the cause of this crash, I'm posting a workaround.

1. Download the workaround file.
2. Unzip/Extract the zip file "ReinforcementCTD.zip" to your C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data folder (or wherever you have installed EB).
3. In the folder named "ReinforcementCTD", you'll find a Readme.txt file with instructions for bypassing the CTD.

This folder contains a file for working around
battles which crash to the desktop (CTD) after
the end of the battle.

This workaround will bypass all the trait triggers
as a temporary solution until we can determine exactly
what is causing this CTD.

To apply this workaround,
1. First, save your game immediately before the battle and exit RTW.
2. Next, double-click the file labeled "EB_1_Swap.bat".
This will backup your original traits file and copy in one without triggers.
3. Load up your savegame and play the battle normally.
4. Immediately after the battle, save the game and exit RTW.
5. Now, double-click the file labeled "EB_2_Restore.bat".
This will restore your original traits file.
6. Load up your savegame and continue playing.

[PseRamesses]

Ok, until I can find the cause of this crash, I'm posting a workaround.
1. Download the workaround file.
2. Unzip/Extract the zip file "ReinforcementCTD.zip" to your C:\Program Files\Activision\Rome - Total War\Data folder (or wherever you have installed EB).
3. In the folder named "ReinforcementCTD", you'll find a Readme.txt file with instructions for bypassing the CTD.

Outstanding man, thx M(alrubius)8!

[Christianus]

CHRISTIANUS BUG REPORTS

Carthago

Bug Report 1:
Reinforcement battle CTD

1)Factions: Carthage\Rebels
2)Circumstances: Open field. One of the rebel armies attacking from the city of Tingis. Reinforcement battle.
3)Leaders: Family members\Family members
4)Outcome: Carthaginian victory. On autoresolve; Average Victory.
5)Positioning: Field and hill
6) Version: EB Version v.74
7) Traits: With the trait file in the first post "export_descr_character_traits" posted by khelvan, the game still crashes.
8) Screen shot:

9) What address should I send save game to?

10) General Comments: The game crashes when Im done on the battlefield, and the loading bar is done "reloading", and the game is supposed to be loaded back to the campaign map. It doesn`t crash when I autoresolve.

I edited the "EXPORT_DESCR_UNIT" so I can play with 0-turn reqruitment, and I edited my "Poeni Citizen Militia" giving them 200 men in each unit instead of 160 men. I will use this setup in all my games with Carthago.

[paullus]

Have you gotten far enough on the 1.5 conversion to check and see if the reinforcement CTD still happens there? You never know, that might somehow fix it.

[Malrubius]

Have you gotten far enough on the 1.5 conversion to check and see if the reinforcement CTD still happens there? You never know, that might somehow fix it.

I think you're right. The doubled PostBattle triggers bug in 1.2 was fixed in 1.5, and since it only seems to happen in player-fought battles, it seems something might be happening on the 2nd pass through the traits file.

It would be possible to set up a situation in descr_strat to make this pretty easy to test, once I've gotten 1.5 installed.

[Masy]

Sorry Malrubius no savegame, it happened a while ago. However i'm gonna try and get into some CTD reinforcment situations tonight, and will post any results (with saves).

[toxicseagull]

well..... reinforcement battle, without CTD.

as the casse, fighting the two rebel armys that you start with near you roaming. in the forests to the northeast of the starting province,
was playing patch 7.3a. open field (forest and road in map), winter, glorious defeat for me, i had a family member, they both had their starting generals but i killed one leader (of the smaller army) before end of battle.
largest army came on as reinforcment.

hope that helps, keep up the great work

[PseRamesses]

I´ve also had several reinforcement siege battles and only one has crashed so I tried out different approaches:

Besieging Hierosolyma with my (Seleukid) generals army.
Ptolemies has 2 hoplites and a general in the town.
Reinforcement army attacks, standing on siege works, contains some 60-70 solidiers of 4 types (almost depleted), no general.

1. CTD when exit battle.
2. CTD after viewing batt-stats, then exit battle.
3. CTD when intown general routs.
4. No CTD when I killed him.
5. No CTD when autocalc (as usual).

[Kull]

My second Reinforcement CTD, after playing many battles with reinforcements without CTDing, with many different conditions. I failed to keep the first CTD save-game though.

Eiperos vs Romani v.74,

How to reproduce the CTD:

1. Load the game.

2. Click on any town and activate the script (though it CTDed without it too, I tested it).

3. Look at the Italian boot, that's where the action will happen.

4. Press End turn, a Romani army SHOULD attack the little Eiperote stack sitting at the border, when the battle screen pops-up, select WITHDRAW from battle.

5. The Eiperote little stack will retreat a few steps back and sit right next to another Eiperote stack, the Romans should attack AGAIN. And it's in this battle, with an Eiperote reinforcement stack, PLUS a Romani reinforcement stack that the CTD will happen at the end of the battle (only tested a victory).

If things don't work as planned, let me know and I'll upload a save from the second battle screen pop-up:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=V220UKOP

I tested this out with an EB v.74 setup, and here were the results:

1) Enemy had one army with a general, i had two armies with two generals. I deliberately decided to lose, just to see if that would cause a CTD. The result was a crushing defeat for me (my army "melted away), but no CTD.

2) Repeated the test, had identical force dispositions, and achieved a clear victory. No CTD.

3) Immediately after, returning from the Battle Map to the strat map, there was ANOTHER pre-battle map display. Apparently a second Roman army was hot on the heels of the first, and attacked me. Force dispositions were similar (1 army versus 2) but this time they were led by a Captain. Again I achieved a Clear Victory, and again, no CTD.

4) I combined my two armies under a General and attacked the Romans, putting Canusium under siege. The next turn they attacked 2 armies to my one, including a sally by the garrison of Canusium, with a captain and a general leading their forces. This time I achieved a Heroic Victory, but once again, no CTD.

Very odd.

Edit1: Once more into the breach!

5) Since the one-on-two didn't seem to be doing anything, I started over, and autoresolved into a defeat. The next turn the Romans had retreated north near Canusium, so I assembled a mid size army under a single General and followed after them, but stayed clear of Canusium (so the battle would have nothing to do with sieges). Sure enough, next turn the enemy attacked with two armies against my one (they had a captain and a general). The result was a long, bloody Heroic Victory, followed by a CTD!!! Woowoo! My first Reinforcement CTD!!

6) On a hunch, I decided to test out the same maneuver, but this time to fight the battle using a Captain. Basically I replicated all the moves from #5 and once again achieved a Heroic Victory, but this time there was no CTD.

Edit2: Used the exact same setup and ran out three more battles:

7) All three times I used a General. One battle was with scripts activated, and the other two were without scripts. All three resulted in Clear Victories. There were no CTDs in any of the battles.

Edit3: Modified the setup a little so I have fewer troops, and ran two battles:

8) Both times I used a General. One battle was with scripts activated, and the other was without scripts. Both resulted in Heroic Victories. Both times there was a CTD!

Edit4: The setup is now perfect. I can get a Heroic Victory anytime I want. Here are two more battles, identical troops to the previous two battles with one exception - No General leading my army:

9) Both times I used a Captain. One battle was with scripts activated, and the other was without scripts. Both resulted in Heroic Victories. Both times there was not a CTD!

Edit5: One final test. What happens if I lose?

10) Tried one battle, script on, army led by a General. The result was a Crushing Defeat, there was no CTD.

Edit6: What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment!

11) Tried two more battles, script on, army led by a General. The first one was an Average Victory, and there was a CTD. The second result was a Crushing Defeat, but this time I made sure not to harm the enemy Generals and ensured that mine escaped alive. Even so, there was no CTD.

If anyone wants to play with this, here's a link to the file.

And here's the start screen when you load it up. The army is in place near Canusium, surrounded by Romans and led by a Captain. If you want a General to lead your army, add the unit as indicated by the Green Arrow. When you are ready to go, just click End Turn:

[econ21]

I just had a CTD that I can replicated twice after loading a savegame (most of my other CTDs are not replicable), so I will report it:

1) Factions - Rome (me) vs Macedon

2) Circumstances - Siege battle? Rally? Open field? Bridge? Fort? Where and when (winter?) did it happen?

Open field, raining.

3) Leaders - Were they captains, generals, or family members?

Enemy was 2 outcomes.

4) Outcome - Level of victory/defeat, did any defeated stacks survive? How many units remained?

No - wiped out both stacks to a man.

5) Positioning - Were any of the stacks standing on siege graphics? On a land bridge? On a river crossing?

No.

6) Version - EB Version (v.72, v.73a, v.74)

v.74

7) Traits - Does the traits file found right here affect the CTD?

I tried Malrubius's workaround, but it still CTD a third time. Note - in the two replications, the savegame starts at the pre-battle scene. So there is no chance to enable the EB scripts via the advisor.

8) Screen shots - If possible, please provide screen shots so we can see things like the units in each army, what year it was, whether there was a general, etc.

Posting savegame instead.

9) Save game - If possible, please use a free file hosting service, such as Yousendit, to give us the opportunity to test it.

Sent it to Malrubius with as CTD1.zip.

[abou]

Fight with CTD:
· Romani vs Makedonia
· Attacked while sieging Dalminion by relief force battle then took place at an open field. My units were the same that took place at the battle near Segestica after retraining at Rome sans the Family Member who was managing the newly captured city.
· Only captains
· Heroic victory
· EB v0.74


Note: This was the second time I was attacked by a relief force. The first time I had a heroic victory with no CTD, but the force that arrived from the city garrison did not participate in the battle, but was on the battle map. I would have screens and a save, but forgot to grab them.

Fight without CTD:

· Romani vs Eleutheroi
· Attacked while near Segestica by Eleutheroi force with assistance by the garrison - battle then took place at an open field.
· Romani had a family member, the Eleutheroi just had captains.
· Clear victory with no enemy stacks remaining - it was a win or to-the-death for the Eleutheroi.
· EB v0.74
· Traits - here is a screen with traits, plus a little more info of the field. As you can see, I also blockaded the port.



Saves for both battles: http://abou.heliologue.com/uploads/saves.zip

[Jarardo]

I've never had the problem, after reading about it, I get a little timid commiting to fighting big, long battles with a lot of enemies. But its never happened to me. Though I am a special sort of person.

I've mostly played Macedon. I havent spent any long amount of time playing as anyone else. I've also only used version 7.4. I'll see if I can get a save loaded up.

I just cant help myself!

[pezhetairoi]

just for the record, I have NEVER had a reinforcement battle CTD, despite fighting countless relief/sally/field/bridge battles in various different configurations against every faction except the sauromatae, pontos, hayasdan, ptolemaioi, sweboz and yuezhi.

[Jarardo]

Still haven't had a reinforcement CTD, I'd like to help if I can though. Heres a picture of one about to heppen. I'm the Makedons, the AI is pontus, theres a pontic family member in the town, and one in the southernmost army, the middle army is led by a captain. I had 1 family member in my stack. I killed both family members, and chased most of the rest away, I didnt kill very many of their soldiers. I have the save if you want to check it out, I can use the UsendIt, what email should I send it to?

[PseRamesses]

Is there any progress in hunting this bug down guys?

I´m currently stucked in my Seleukid camp. When the AI attacks, ctd. When I attack, ctd. Only way is to autocalc but I know I´ll loose big and I really don´t want to be set back at this stage in the campaign.