When does one go to heaven?

[Upxl]

Originally Posted by Idaho
Basically god set us up for fall. He thought "hehehe.. I'm going to create some people with free will and a mind of their own. The poor fools are bound to get all rational and not want to believe in a bunch of weird illogical superstitions - and then their ass is grass baby!

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent. If such a being exists - and gives a monkey's about us (of which I am skeptical on either count) then we are all going to heaven. Why not? Why would such a being want to torture us just because we wouldn't do what some organised religion said?

Did anyone see the devil's Advocate?
If I go with a theory about god I'll go with the one Al Pacino makes at the end of the movie.

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent?

Did anyone see the devil's Advocate?
If I go with a theory about god I'll go with the one Al Pacino makes at the end of the movie.

Why would a supreme being more enlightened and infinately compassionate and intelligent than us act like a mean parent?

for the same reason there are wars, famine, epidemics, etc...
If the guy exist he probably gets high on pain and misfortune.

[Samurai Waki]

interesting question, the way I was taught in theology, and this may be only a Catholic opinion on the matter, is that irregardless of whatever religion or religion you aren't a part of, is generally not the persons fault and is a rather moot point anyway. If you are born a Hindu and do not convert to Christianity, its because that is the way you were taught as a Child, and even if you never convert, as long as you are moral, just, and good you are still considered a child of god and deserve to earn a spot in heaven. Thats the opinion in modern Catholicism anyway, and even if you are a terrible "sinner", its likely that you can repent all of your sins in purgatory, and still earn a spot in heaven... so according to this theory, men like Stalin and Hitler may not necessarily go to hell, just spend a Very Very Very long time in purgatory...

[Byzantine Mercenary]

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!
god loves everyone so i doubt hes gonna give anyone what they don't wan't as long as they repent of what they have done wrong. God is what created everything good so if you want to go without god then the good things will be gone to, just the same as if you stop eating, you might get a bit hungry!
an interesting thought, when did Jesus mention Purgatory?

''Er.. ok. So because I am doubtful of the truth of the bible I want to go to a magic demon's land where little devils will poke me up the bottom with forks?

And this is all quite logical ''
geeze man listen to what i said not what you think i said

(you will probably go to heaven)
''if you want to go to heaven and if you truly repent what you have done wrong (god forgives all those who truly repent)''

although again i must say that no one can say who will be in heaven

[Banquo's Ghost]

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!

It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See?

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See?

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

one man builds a tower a mile high, made entirely of diamonds ground to size by hand, with a city at the top 1000 miles sqaured balance perfectly comprised of diamond towers a mile high each with a city at the top comprised of the same towers going on into infinity.

another man walks up to one of the towers and drops a handfull of dust over the tower coating a few of the diamonds untill the wind blows the dust away. this is just a small representation of the difference in power between god and satan, god is infinate with infinate creation and Satan can only obscure a small amount of god's creation, god lets him do this evil just as he lets humans do this evil when they so wish because he gave both free will. But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

[Ja'chyra]

one man builds a tower a mile high, made entirely of diamonds ground to size by hand, with a city at the top 1000 miles sqaured balance perfectly comprised of diamond towers a mile high each with a city at the top comprised of the same towers going on into infinity.

another man walks up to one of the towers and drops a handfull of dust over the tower coating a few of the diamonds untill the wind blows the dust away. this is just a small representation of the difference in power between god and satan, god is infinate with infinate creation and Satan can only obscure a small amount of god's creation, god lets him do this evil just as he lets humans do this evil when they so wish because he gave both free will. But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

Woah, easy with the brain washing.

[Banquo's Ghost]

But it is only a brief obsurance of gods infinate creation they are not equally powerful by any stretch of the imgination, evil is not a creation, evil is only the obscuring of gods creation, it can't even leave a scratch.

OK, I give up. There's no point in discussing logical premises derived from a faith based system. We won't ever see eye to eye, we don't even speak the same language.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

OK, I give up. There's no point in discussing logical premises derived from a faith based system. We won't ever see eye to eye, we don't even speak the same language.

Get of your high horse for a minuite here!

I could have said the same superiority crap and run away too, there is logic in religion i don't see much logic in a universe born of chaos but i don't go around saying how illogical you guys are, you guys have asked my to expain heaven so that is what i did, in the best way that i can.

Its hard to read context in text, so if you are just agreeing to disagre and not trying to paint my beliefs as faith based and illogical (as it seems you are to me) then fine.

[Don Corleone]

It's because of the logic, derived from the position that Christians take about their god. Atheists and agnostics try to understand using the thought process they are used to - which excludes faith based assumptions.

God created everything. Since evil exists, therefore he created evil. As creator, he cannot claim credit just for good. Thus he can be apportioned responsibility for evil, even if his creation of Man is the one choosing to inflict evil.

Or:

God created everything except evil. Since evil exists, there must be another creator, at least as powerful as God. Either this is Man, creating evil from his own free will, or another supernatural creator such as Satan. Evil is demonstrably as powerful as good to affect men's lives, which means either Man or Satan is as powerful as god. Therefore there is not one god, but at least two.

See?

Whereas the atheist can argue that since there is no God, Man takes full responsibility for both good and evil.

Okay, let's change metaphors and lets look at a family situation?

A set of parents create a house and in the fullness of time, they get pregnant and have a child. As the child grows, the parents try to do everything they can to see to it that the child grows up healthy, happy and wise.

When the child is 19, he discoveres his parents' liqour cabinet. He asks his parents for a key so that he can indulge too. Now, mind you, I said 19. He's old enough to know good and bad, right from wrong. His Dad says well, I think you're old enough. But before you touch anything, you must understand, things in this cabinet must be enjoyed in moderation. Too much of anything in here and you'll be very sick, possibly die. So, be careful.

One saturday night, a friend that the parents don't approve of comes over to hang out. Unfortunately, the parents aren't home. The 'friend' encourages the son to drink bourbon... a LOT of it. Too much. After he vomits it up, the friend holds the bottle to his mouth and encourages him to drink more. Eventually, the son succumbs to alcohol poisoning and dies.

Now, let me ask you...

Were the parents to blame?

Was the alcohol itself?

No, it was the son, who made the choice to continue drinking when he should have stopped, to hang out with a bad influence that he knew he should avoid, and to reject what his father had told him in his warnings.

Now, could the parents have seen to it that there was no alcohol? Does the fact that they didn't make the son's overindulgance their fault instead of his? Let's say the son didn't die. Let's say he pukes all over the floor, kicks his younger sister and breaks some valuable family heirlooms. His father comes home to find him staggering drunk, attempting to beat up his younger sister. The father backhands the son to try to bring him back to reality. Is the father solely responsible?

This is the problem with modern times. Everyone demands their rights, and nobody takes responsiblity for anything. We're all a bunch of children complaining that our piggy bank is empty after we've bought too much candy.

[Don Corleone]

As for the original question, Duke John,... forget what any dogma or 'true vision' of Christianity says (Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist, or any other worldwide cult, and I AM a devout Christian).

How did Christ treat the establishment of the established religion of his day. He railed against the Sadducees and the Pharisees. He said they didn't have the first clue about what the Father wanted.

More importantly, He warned all of us against passing judgement on each other and condemning each other "Remove the plank from your own eye, then you can see clearly to help your brother with the speck in his".

But He also said "I am the way, the truth and the life. Noone may come to the Father except through me".

If you're asking if anybody else has the right to say you're bound for heaven or hell, no, nobody else on Earth can tell YOU where you're headed. If you're asking do you need to know Christ at some point in your life, I think so. I know that I do. If you want to talk about Christ, let me know. I'll tell you what I've learned of Him. If you want to talk about why we suffer from evil in the world, I can offer you my guesses. If you want answers, well, I'm sorry, you're going to have find those for yourself. No shortcuts.

[Kanamori]

Eh, meh, not really belonging in this thread.

[Xiahou]

This is the problem with modern times. Everyone demands their rights, and nobody takes responsiblity for anything. We're all a bunch of children complaining that your piggy bank is empty after we've bought too much candy.

I second that.

[Idaho]

why is there this obsession with blameing god for evil in the world, he gave mankind free will, if mankind choose to act like idiots then bad things will happen but just because god gives us the freedom to do what we want, you say he delights in wars!

If we seem to delight in wars and bad acts then obviously god did not create us with free will, god created us with a tendancy to delight in wars and bad acts. Like I say - he was setting us up for a fall.

I reckon he has 'children' on planets all over the universe. He's just running us through mazes while detatchedly making notes. He no more loves us than a scientist loves the mould in a petri dish.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

If we seem to delight in wars and bad acts then obviously god did not create us with free will, god created us with a tendancy to delight in wars and bad acts. Like I say - he was setting us up for a fall.

I reckon he has 'children' on planets all over the universe. He's just running us through mazes while detatchedly making notes. He no more loves us than a scientist loves the mould in a petri dish.

ahh but not all of us delieght in wars though! god gave us a choice if we chose war its our fault not god's

[Duke John]

I recently talked to a Jehova witness (no I did not close the door instantly) and he said that if everybody lived according to the bible there would be no war. I replied that one could be peacefull without believing as that way of living has on in essence nothing to do with believing in a god. He responded that I wouldn't go return when God creats his paradise on Earth. I wouldn't mind since I would be dead and wouldn't even know that this paradise was created. Then he asked wether it wouldn't be a missed opportunity, just in case.

Later on I thought about it a bit more and came to the conclusion that if a God puts believing in Him above being a good man I would not believe in him. (Besides not believing in a greater being anyway, but that is not the point of discussion here.) To me it comes across as childish that a God would need attention or otherwise you wouldn't be invited to his afterparty.

If you are born a Hindu and do not convert to Christianity, its because that is the way you were taught as a Child, and even if you never convert, as long as you are moral, just, and good you are still considered a child of god and deserve to earn a spot in heaven.

Then why believe?