Could the Mongols have conquered Europe?

[L'Impresario]

Comments on conjectures about conjectures are always a favourite pastime heh
Without saying anything more, I'll only mention that, although mostly portayed negatively by westerners (quite understandable i guess), I believe the Mongols could have found "allies" of sorts within Europe, internal rivalries can always be exploited by an outside force as people are, more or less, doomed to commit past mistakes.
Direct conquest isn't very effective in many occasions.
Afterall, if you 're having your hands full, better the devil you don't know:


BTW, I might be mistaken, but isn't this thread galloping towards the Monastery in full speed, arrows poised to pierce the resident monks' frail bodies? - Although I guess the previous threads have already covered to a satisfying degree the whole issue. Not that a definite answer should be the expected outcome of such discussions;)

[Mooks]

There is a infinate supply of 'what if' . Like what if Casear didnt get assasinated and went to fight the Parthians? Would he have conquered them or have lost everything like crassus.

Nobody will or ever know...

[The_Doctor]

Somebody would learn to counter their tactics. It is evolution. Though the Mongols would also change their tactics again.

Hussite War Wagons + Longbowmen and Crossbowmen could beat HAs. I know Hussites did not exist then, somebody could have had the same idea.

[Furious Mental]

Crossbows didn't save the Chinese.

[Samurai Waki]

With a situation as stated before, had the mongols invaded Western Europe, how the politics would be played out. Although Chivalry was the reigning mindset of the period, could the mongols depend on the Europeans to be honorable in battle? Or would they use ambush techniques? Also, what would the situation have been, say, had the pope declared an all out crusade against the mongols, every Christian man and woman was to take up arms and prepare to defend the realm. Or would the Europeans willfully bend the knee as to not cause too much destruction?

It has to be remembered, at the period of the mongol invasion, Europe had less people combined than Japan did at the same time. The what-ifs are too many, and I fear, far to late to speculate predictably.

[screwtype]

It has to be remembered, at the period of the mongol invasion, Europe had less people combined than Japan did at the same time. The what-ifs are too many, and I fear, far to late to speculate predictably.

I get the impression from most of the posts so far that few people actually bothered to read LoH's posts, and are just giving their stock responses to the matter.

I really think you guys ought to go and read the posts first before commenting on them.

And I don't know where you get the idea that medieval Europe had "fewer people than Japan at the same time". That sounds preposterous to me. LoH gives the total population of Europe at the time as around 60 million (IIRC) and cites that number as one of the reason a Mongol conquest would have been impossible.

Edit: Here's a link to a population table of Medieval Europe, showing that LoH's estimate would be about right.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pop-in-eur.html

[L'Impresario]

I 've read that post more than a year or two ago and even at that time it didn't make a convincing case IMO, due to its overeliance on the standard arguments used to explain a possible mongol failure. One of the "opposite camp" wouldn't have to adress each specific point to draw a different conclusion, simply because some things aren't measurable,like (enter classic pro-mongol statements: resilience, adaptability, genious etc).
And I have this gut feeling that when the movie with the fictional invasion of western Europe comes out, it'll be showing the noble crusade of all Europeans, united to repel the pagan invaders, longbowmen next to France's finest chevaliers and all that. Too bad that such ideas started getting old by the 6th or 7th crusade, when Latin states in the Middle East had almost fallen apart. After all, the Pope would have already declared a crusade after Mohi, but, alas, would anyone hear him in time with more pressing domestic issues?

On a sidenote, I believe higher population levels wouldn't have made the "conquest" (what is actually meant with 'Mongols conquering Europe' btw heh) harder, maybe the opposite...an early "Black Death" would have saved all parties involved many efforts and years. But who cared about the general populace in order to get them behind walls heh

[Orda Khan]

I get the impression from most of the posts so far that few people actually bothered to read LoH's posts, and are just giving their stock responses to the matter.

LoH gives the total population of Europe at the time as around 60 million (IIRC) and cites that number as one of the reason a Mongol conquest would have been impossible.

Judging by these two quotes, we should suspect that you agree with him? As I stated above, maybe some research of the Mongols would help him in his spurious claims. What was the population of China? What was the population of Khwarazm? What was the population of Russia? Or better still, what was the combined population of all these areas and more? It had not made an impression upon the Mongols thus far so why would it now? Europe posed no greater difficulty than China, in fact probably far less and a united Mongol empire would have reached the Atlantic within 20 years.
L'Impresario was right, this is a Monastery debate, but it has all been done before

.......Orda