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Thread: Naginata Calvalry

  1. #1
    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    I love using calvalry, so another calvalry unit is appreciated. People who hate cav do not know how to use them. You have to take advantage of their speed to flank the enemy. This unit sounds like it will be able to stand HtH with shock units a bit better (yari should still kick their butt). They will be slower but will still be faster than any foot unit. They will be good to keep in reserve to help any melee units that get in trouble. They should have enough speed to help a routing unit before it routs and have enough fighting power to stand up once in the melee.

    I hear alot of complaints about the sword saints, battle field ninjas and ashigaru crossbows. Alot of the talk is centered around the historical innacuracy of these units. Who cares (obviously alot of people do) it's just a game? If you want historical accuracy get a degree in Japanese history. I bought the game to play it not grade it on how close it is to history. Other people have fear about balancing the power of these new troops. In a way I agree with that. If a sword saint is Superman with a sword on the battle field then it is bad for the game. But I seriously doubt that is going to happen. Shogun is a great game with well balanced units (some might argue that WM are too powerful but I don't agree). And unless I am mistaken the expansion pack is going to be produced by the same folks at CA/DT. So I feel confident that they will work out the balancing issues associated with the new units.

    Personally I'll take all the new units I can get. It will add more tactical challenges to a game that already is very challenging.
    I am impressed with the number of units they are going to add. The only thing I would ask for is shock troops for the Monguls/Koreans. That may be in the works. I don't know about anyone else but I am psyched for the expansion and will be waiting to purchase one the day it hits the store.

    [This message has been edited by edRonin (edited 02-23-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by edRonin (edited 02-23-2001).]
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  2. #2
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    "More than just another strategy wargame, Shogun:Total War is an exhaustively researched slice of interactive history. Alongside the point-n-click clash of continually warring armies, this game lifts the lid on life in 16th century Japan. From the personalities and heraldry of this epic age, to the weaponry, battles and ancient tradition, Creative Assembly has created a wargame with extraordinary depth, detail and realism."

    page 7 of the Prima Official Strategy Guide for Shogun:Total War

    Many buyers expect CA to stick with the program. If they want to pimp this game as history, we get to call them on it when they head off toward Fantasy Island. Not all of us believe that "all the new units (you) can get" will make for a better game, ed. Sure what you like is all a matter of taste but comments like "If you want historical accuracy get a degree" are out of line considering all the marketing about "history this" and "reality that" from the publisher.

    Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.

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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    Quote I hear alot of complaints about the sword saints, battle field ninjas and ashigaru crossbows. Alot of the talk is centered around the historical innacuracy of these units. Who cares (obviously alot of people do) it's just a game? If you want historical accuracy get a degree in Japanese history.[/QUOTE]

    You must really enjoy Starcraft. As a longtime STW player, I must clarify a point about "historical accuracy". It has less to do with the actual game mechanics than the flavor of the game. In other words, how can one suspend reality long enough to get into a game if the product itself does not go to any length to do this? Putting a Godzilla character in STW may be fun, but alot of the strategy gaming community prefer something along some sort of guidelines, at the very least to help us know what to expect by way of gameplay. When I go out onto the field of battle in STW, I can be relatively sure that my tactics and experience won't be disrupted by a giant lizard that appears on the screen and begins to maul my units. This is what is meant by "historical accuracy,"; it's a matter of game balance.

    Quote Shogun is a great game with well balanced units (some might argue that WM are too powerful but I don't agree).[/QUOTE]
    Get your ass in MultiPlayer and look for me (SamuraiSoly). I'll be happy to school you on some of these "balanced units". I'
    ll be the one atop a nice hill on a sunny day with an all muskey-and-monk army.

    Quote Personally I'll take all the new units I can get.[/QUOTE]
    I have every sense you'll be buying a new game to over-play within six weeks. So much for "growing" with a game.


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    Member Member Geisha's Avatar
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    Lol! We are not talking about giant lizards.... We don't have to suspend reality to believe ashigaru can carry crossbows, and cavalry units can hold naginatas. Nor do we have to do it to believe that some samurai were exceptional swordsman. What you are talking about is not historical accuracy - you are talking about realism. You want to be a general commanding an army in the 16th century. You want a realistic experience. Don't you think it is possible that at some point a cavalry unit equipped themselves with naginata? Isn't it possible that one very experienced swordsman managed to kill one more than 60 men? As a computer game, Shogun: Totalwar provides a very realistic experience, and these new units don't change that, they simply make the battlefield more diverse. And diversity is good.

    BTW Solypsist, if you really enjoy the flavour of the game, and don't want to suspend reality, I suggest you don't play with an all "muskey-and-monk army"...

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    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Love it when you get passionate reply to a post. Shows that people truly care about the game. Which is what really matters.

    Nelson, correct me if I am wrong (I very well could be), but the Prima strategy guide was not produced by Dreamtime/Creative Assembly. So I am not sure you can hold the developers responsible for claims made by a third party in the strategy guide. I wish the strategy guide was produced by DT/CA and had been included in the game. It is an excellent guide which I would recommend to anyone playing the game. That being said the original game definitely gives the look and feel of 16th century japan. Actually the best thing that they did with the game to give it a reality base was to incorporate fatigue, moral, line of sight and honor. Real soldiers get tired. Real soldiers retreat when facing overwhelming odds. Thats reality in combat. Not units that happily march to their death in the face of overwhelming odds.

    Solypsist, I love Starcraft. It's one of the most immersive games of all time. I played it and Brood war for about 6 months each when they came out. The only game that has held me more in it's thrall is Shogun. I have played it almost exclusively since it came out. I must admit that I never play online. I hear too many complaints about cheating and camping to bother. Plus I enjoy the strategic part of the game. So I play the SP campaign on expert. To me the tactical battles need the strategic context to give them value. When the online MP game comes out I will meet your guns and monks on the hill ... in the spring during a driving rainstorm (I assume if you are on a hill you are defending and I get to pick the weather)!!! Actually I am far more concerned with how they implement the onlime MP than the new units.

    All this being said let me clarify that I am not advocating for anything goes in the game. I do not think that the next unit should be paratroopers, panzers or tactical nukes (that would defeat the monk rush though ...). As long as the new units are reasonable and fit into the general context of the game and are well balanced I will be happy. I think the smartest thing CA/DT could do is allow users to pick and chose which units can be used in any particular game. Any units you hate can be omitted.

    Any new unit that is unbalanced I will have a problem with. If the Korean Guardsman is faster than YC, has more armor than Naginata, fights better than WM and cost 100 koku I will have a problem with it. Balanced units is the key. If I were developing the game the Sword Saint would be triggered along the lines of the legendary swordsman event and you would be limited to one Sword Saint at a time. If your Sword Saint dies and you have another high honor samurai you get another Sword Saint. This will reward players who go on the offensive. The Sword Saint would be difficult to kill in melee initially. But as he gets tired you could rotate a new fresh unit to attack him and kill him. I would also think that missile attack on the Sword Saint would eventually kill him. I guess my point is have some faith that the developers will do a good job and implement the new units properly. It is good to voice concerns in the forums so the developers can get a read on what we want. Just don't trash the expansion pack before it comes out. Give it a chance.
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  6. #6

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    edRonin,

    Playing the sp campaign gives you a different perspective on the game than playing online. The original units are not all well balanced. This comes out more in online play where perceptive players pickup on even slight advantages. And, in the case of Shogun, these imbalance issues are not slight. I just got caught by a 16 unit monk rush yesterday. A lot of good my "balanced" army did me.

    It's already know that heavy cavalry is pretty much a waste of koku in most online situations. Naginata cavalry is heavier, slower and less armored than HC, and will probably cost something like 500 koku. It looks like a bridge/castle assault unit to me. I was hoping the expansion would refine the old units and add a few more with everything carefully balanced. Can all of these new units really have been carefully play tested?


    All the marketing hype is pretty hard to take. I remember last June carefully reading the box before buying Shogun to make sure that online and LAN play hadn't been completely dropped from the final release. Part of it was dropped, but at least online battles made it into the box, such as they are. With the high level of realism in the battle engine, it would certainly raise the game to new heights to be historically accurate as well.

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    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    my reply wasn't intended as an attack on a forum user, but rather an extreme reply to a percieved extreme-post (quote "If you want historical accuracy get a degree in Japanese history. I bought the game to play it not grade it on how close it is to history. ")

    the deal is that STW, warts and all, is a big leap to RTS games, much in the way Command&Conquer redefined the genre way back (actually, it was Dune, but it didn't have nearly the commercial impact C&C did.) But unlike C&C, a lot of us here are hoping the game engine/setting doesn't develop into something made to appeal to the players who are more inclined towards fantasy than strategy -at least within the Shogun universe. So complaining about this-or-that unit, based on the description, is a security measure intended to keep things moderately mature in the game. We all have our sacred cows.

    BTW, I'm more of a Yari-Samurai player myself, the all muskets-and-monks phrase was to demonstrate how unbalanced an army can be, even when using using "balanced units".




    [This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 02-20-2001).]

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    Member Member Satake's Avatar
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    The only thing i'd have a problem with is if they'd add the sword saint to MP. I mean have you seen that clip where he goes around butchering yari ashi like mad while also picking off a battlefield ninja who gets in the way? I don't care how good a soldier you are , when you get stabbed in the back by a unit you can't even see you're dead , no matter how good you can sling a sword.

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    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Sorry if my comment was too harsh. I've been reading alot of posts that trashed the new units and the game in general over historical issues. I was just trying to make the point that it is only a game that has the flavor of 16th century Japan. It's my all time favorite game so I may have been too extreme in my defence of Shogun. I think everyone who plays the game seriously wants it to remain true to it's setting in 16th century Japan, it's just that we all have different thresholds where we think they will depart from that setting.
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    Member Member theforce's Avatar
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    Well cavarly can be used for limited resons and is not ideal for all maps. Is useless when attacking high hills and especially in 1v1 games. CA can bge quite annoying when you don't have YC. I use cavarly to block enemy cavarly and sometimes to flank. Is pretty useful in 2v2 games though

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Why is everyone concentrating on the less speed and armour bit rather than the more effective attack side of the naginta cavalry preview? Longer lasting than, say, yari cavalry but not as much staying power as heavy cavalry. Not as fast as other cavalry, but harder hitting. Also, heavy cavalry can be used online. You just have to know when and how to use them.


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    Senior Member Senior Member FwSeal's Avatar
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    Well, Prima guide or not, EA certainly made much of Turnbull's involvement in the mix. I'm not sure, to be frank, what his contribution was but they got to stick his name in the credits.
    The one thing that the dev team really had in their favor insofar as this is concerned is the general lack of detailed knowledge in the west on the subject. Had they done a game on the Romans and been as fast and loose with the history as they have with STW, they'd probably get a drubbing that would dwarf any minor complaints here.
    Personally, I wasn't exactly expecting much in terms of historical accuracy while awaiting the release of the game. The moment I saw the word 'geisha' applied to an available unit, such hopes as I may have had went out the window. That doesn't mean I didn't - and don't - love the game. But there's a line in the sand that eventually has to be drawn between fun-factor and realism with something like this. How much 'flavor' do you have when the ingrediants are off?
    Starcraft (which I enjoyed) has no such line, nor need there be - it isn't purporting to be anything more then what it is - good science fiction fun.
    The truth is, the array of units in the game has always been a bit more about playability then realism.
    I'll buy the expasion, but I do think that kensai, battlefield ninjas, and ashigaru crossbowmen (I do hope that applies only to the Koreans) are absurd. Sure, one COULD argue that there MIGHT have been samurai who killed 60 men in one battle - but by that logic, we might as well add in Conquistadors. After all, Spain MIGHT have attacked Japan...

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    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    It would be intersting to have a Q&A session with Stephen Turnbull about the historical accuracy of the original Shogun and the expansion pack. I wonder if Ritchie could arrange that?

    Another thought I had while reading FwSeals post is that it is alot easier to make a future/fantasy game like Starcraft or Warcraft than one that uses a historical setting. You never hear anyone say that Templars or Dragons were present during that period but were so rare that the wide scale use of them is innacurate. You always have to be careful when you read the marketing about the game. The goal of marketing is to get you to buy the game. If it is slightly innacurate (as is the case with the original Shogun) they depend on your enjoyment of the game to overlook the innacuracies.

    Ask yourself this, would you enjoy the game more or less if Warrior Monks and No-Daichi were not available? From all the posts I have read those are the two most innacurate unit types in the original game. I think if you polled Shogun players the most popular unit would be Warrior Monks. I personally would probably still enjoy the game without those two units, but not nearly as much. I am glad the took a little liberty with history in this case, it made for a much better game.

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    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    Consider this.

    How many posts has anyone seen that complained about TOO MUCH realism and accuracy in the game as it stands?

    I can't think of any. Accuracy isn't such a gameplay killer after all. Back on the AoE forums a couple years ago whenever someone mentioned weather or morale or fatigue a bunch of guys would show up and tell him that that much realism would ruin the game. Robot soldiers were best for gameplay. Who wants to build an army and watch it get fatigued and run away? And of course, lest I forget, he'd be told to go read a book if he wants a history lesson. Interesting, huh?

    Goofy, ahistoric features that don't ever appear won't ever be missed.
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    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Thats an interesting point Nelson. Although I don't think of weather, moral and fatigue as a historical feature. It's more a realism thing. The beauty of those features is that they apply no matter what historical context you give the game. Were the units in AoE considered historically accurate?

    Here's a question for everyone who thinks Shogun is too historically innacurate. How would you change the game if you were the designer to make it more historically accurate? I am not just talking about the expansion pack but the original game as well. The only thing I would remove from the original game is the Geisha, but that is over gameplay issues more than the fact I doubt master assasin Geisha roamed the land slaughtering Daimyos. Kind of a Wolverine with a kimono.
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    Senior Member Senior Member FwSeal's Avatar
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    I would have, of course, disposed of the Geisha, for any number of reasons.
    One thing I might have done was scale back the daimyo's starting lands and develop the 'rebels' more. In 1530 the Oda controlled one province - Owari. The same goes for the Mori. The two provinces the Hojo did control at that time are in Takeda hands in the game! While I can see streching that for balance issues - and if you don't care about history - then it hardly matters, but I personally like starting out with very little and clawing my way to empire - which is exactly what Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu did in real life.
    That to me is one of the main points insofar as historical flavor is concerned. At one time there were about 155 to 200 men who could be considered daimyo and, in 1530, about 30 who could be considered 'contenders'. You get a sense of that in the old 'Nobunaga' games. Here, you already hold a chunk of Japan and the 'rebels' seem to be just open spaces they couldn't fill in with player daimyo (hence and for example Rebel Island on Shikoku - where the Chosokabe, cut from the game, were supposed to go). There's a lot of other things, but thats a big one for me.
    Actually, I'd also have developed the generals and heirs. STW's treatment of the heirs isn't just odd - its just plain bad design.

    [This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 02-22-2001).]

  17. #17
    karoshi Senior Member solypsist's Avatar
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    is it just me or does it seem like Seal-San has been visiting the Dojo more often lately?

  18. #18
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    I would change the following in the game as it stands now for the 16th century:

    An improved castle treatment would be nice but I do prefer what we have to nothing at all. A proper siege might require a whole new game subsystem. That's asking a lot but knocking in some sort of gate is needed in any case. As it is teppo can stand outside the opening and blast the entire garrison with impunity!

    I would enable moving heirs from unit to unit at will. Or give them hatamotos.

    I too would dump the geisha.

    And add more daimyos as FwSeal suggested.

    The monks are badly represented IMO. I would include them but they would be tougher to get and would certainly not be the stormtroopers they are now.

    I would include a mixed cavalry/infantry unit called kibamusha. These would have heavy yari cav and yari ashigaru with a ratio of maybe 1 to 4. Many mounted samurai cantered around the battlefield with a few retainers on foot to lend a hand. It would move like ashigaru but enjoy high morale. (The boss IS right there, after all!)

    Only some units could fight in formations and then not always. Ashigaru (teppo and yari) could use ranks IF you spent time and koku to train them. Everyone else would fight like a mob once combat began. None of these guys were like the Coldstream Guards on the Queen's birthday but that's how they look now.

    I think rampant impetuousity should be commonplace among samurai troops.

    Almost all archers would be ashigaru. (yumi)

    Few if any horse archers would be around.

    And finally, I might somehow limit the capacity to raise samurai in a given region over a certain timeframe. I'm not sure what is appropriate though.


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    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Nelson, I agree with some of your suggestions. Better castle battles and heir management would be great(hate having an heir in a YA unit). More daimyos might be fun as another strategic map option. You could play the traditional campaign with 7 clans and Ronin or with a map closer to correct historical distribution of lands and many Daimyos. I believe they went with 7 clans and the land distribution to keep the game manageable. If they include a strategic map editor someone could come up with a more historically accurate scenario. Actually it sounds like FwSeal has the knowledge to put such a map together if CA/DT does not do it.

    I am not sure how your mixed units of calvalry and yari would be any different than a unit of high honor YA. There would not be any real speed unit to speak of if cav were implemented this way.

    The one suggestion that I really disagree with is having the majority of unit types fight as a mob. Once the fighting starts it would be pretty much impossible to control and manuever your units. From what I have read all of your suggestions would add historical accuracy, but I am not sure how much fun the game would be. One complaint I have about C&C type games is that once a battle starts the guy who wins is the one with the better/more units. There are no tactics involved in any engagement. The beauty of tactical battle in Shogun is the use of terrain and trying to get matchups beneficial to you (Yari vs Cav, Cav vs missile, etc). Mob combat while more historically accurate would remove all tactics from the battles. Very few armies in history moved tactically the way the units do in Shogun. But for me mob combat would be unmanageable and boring.
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    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
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    Ditto on castles and heirs, and here's an idea about the starting provinces:

    We already have some scaling with the difficulty levels - Easy, Normal, Hard, etc.
    Ramping up (or down) the diff level could affect starting provinces as well as starting koku. They would need extra time balancing this, but harder levels could start you with smaller domains and more ronin instead of just gimping your koku. Definitely increase AI (as it already does) but there are more ways the diff level could affect the start of the game. Easy would remain the way it is now, Hard would have a couple fewer provinces, and Expert would start you with just one or two provinces. The biggest balancing issues would be who starts where. Mori would be much worse off than Uesugi, for example. One Mori province nets you 150 koku, which one Uesugi is around 400! Not fair, but.... This allows newbies to have a bigger starting territory, and the die-hard history buffs could claw their way to the Shogunate from Oda's single province. Make sense?


    The next thing they need to revamp (and may yet in the Expansion!) IMHO is to completely overhaul the Alliance/Diplomacy aspect.

    -- B)

  21. #21
    Provost Senior Member Nelson's Avatar
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    edRonin, I didn't elaborate much on any of those ideas and wasn't clear enough. I should have said "engage at will" instead of "like a mob". Units fight like a mob now if you give them an engage at will order. Any formation is fine I think while marching or standing. But in combat I would eleiminate hold formation orders for any but trained ashigaru. Hold position is fine. Engage at will would be the only option available other than skirmish for missle troops. Managing the units would still be exactly the same as it is. Anyhow, when I said I would drop fighting in formations for samurai I meant the hold formation unit command along with the defensive benefits it endows. Try a battle without ever using hold formation to see what I mean. The match ups you mention would be as valid as ever and tactics would not change much unless you rely on hold formation a lot.


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    Senior Member Senior Member FwSeal's Avatar
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    I like the idea of making the troops a bit more impetuous - the sengoku period is filled with examples of generals taking it upon themselves to open a battle with a spirited charge. I would loosen up a bit on formations in general, make them a bit rougher around the edges. As Nelson says, these weren't the Coldstream Guards and I'd bet money on the notion that any daimyo would have been stunned to see his men move with the precision of those in STW.
    Anyway, the heir thing has bugged me from day one, as has, of course, the feeble (feeble seems almost too kind a description) diplomatic aspect of the game. If any one thing truly detracts from the game's historical flavor for me, it has to be that. Why they wasted time making the pretty throne room scenes just to accomodate a guy who comes in to offer you yet another useless alliance is beyond me.

    Anyway, yeah, Soly, I have been haunting the Org more often of late. This is mostly due to my daughter needing shoulder time at all hours. And seeing as how you have hit 1000, I'm getting a little post envy


    [This message has been edited by FwSeal (edited 02-23-2001).]

  23. #23
    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Removing hold formation would be fine by me. I only use it occassionally on bridge defences when I want to pack them on the bridge like sardines. Nelson's suggestion sounds reasonable. If they allow us greater access to modifying the game parameters we could get that by deleting hold formation from the same menu where you can set or unset limited arrows. When you start an online game or a campaign you can specify what features or units you wish to turn off or on. If they give us that everyone will be happy. People who want the option of producing new and different units can have them while people who prefer a more historical battle can turn off all the units and options they hate.

    I would also like to see more diplomatic options. There is a post thread running somewhere (I think Lanza's web site) where they are talking about the bribe feature and how that might lead to some interesting strategic play. When the expansion comes out emissaries will prove to be a much larger threat than they use to. Counter bribery tactics will have to be employed (speculation is that shinobi or ninja in a province will make it harder to bribe a general). Plus it was assumed that a higher honor emissary should be able to bribe a general for less than a low honor emissary.
    There are other things I'd like to see implemented. Someone (can't remeber who) suggested using shinobi to destroy crops or damage dojos. Not sure if this is historically accurate but it would be fun.
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  24. #24
    Member Member BanzaiZAP's Avatar
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    For Nelson, FwSeal and edRonin, the expansion is adding the stat: Discipline
    From the interviews etc. it seems that this is what will affect exactly what you're talking about. A low-discipline unit won't hold formation well, fires out of sync, that kind of thing. You then send them to one of the new dojo's to "improve" their discipline, which allows them to work as a tighter unit.

    And I love the idea about using shinobi/ninja to damage enemy buildings!

    -- B)

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    Member Member MountFuji's Avatar
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    Wow! fascinating discussion!
    But i just know 3 years from now it will be about the lacquer quality on the six different helmet shapes available and how fast they rust, if ever.
    lol...i just can't wait!!!
    I beleive that reality is stranger than fiction and the more reality is involved in a game, the more fascinating it becomes, because there will be that seventh helmet shape with a new expansion pack, it wont rust or let bullets through...but will be a lice nest and only wearable for the more dangerous parts of the battle, while slowly lowering the general's concentration he!he!he!
    "He who is a powerful, opulent dead daimyo with no heir and only one province left to conquer before become becoming Shogun is still a dead daimyo with no heir"
    "It is a hungry geisha who assassinates tadpoles for breakfast"

    ~~~~_
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  26. #26
    Member Member edRonin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by BanzaiZAP:
    For Nelson, FwSeal and edRonin, the expansion is adding the stat: Discipline
    From the interviews etc. it seems that this is what will affect exactly what you're talking about. A low-discipline unit won't hold formation well, fires out of sync, that kind of thing. You then send them to one of the new dojo's to "improve" their discipline, which allows them to work as a tighter unit.
    -- B)
    [/QUOTE]


    BanzaiZap has an excellent point. Maybe the default for units will be undisciplined and they will operate as a mob once engaged with the enemy. You might have to drill them up to get to their current state of discipline.

    Sounds like the developers have been listening to you Nelson.
    All your base are belong to us

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Vanya's Avatar
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    Will a disciplined missle unit avoid hitting the head of the comrade in front of him?

    Will an undisciplined (aka green) soldier be more likely to look up their own musket barrel and pull the trigger to see why it doesn't shoot?

    Will an undisciplined (aka ignorant) sanda boma 'throw the pin and hold the grenade'?

    [Sips sake, eats popcorn]

  28. #28
    Member Member Tenchimuyo's Avatar
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    I think disciplined soldiers tend to rout less. And they won't steal food or rob people from villages. Neither will they rape village women.

    ------------------
    A great warrior never reveal his true skills....
    A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

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