RTR mod - Great mod but still some realism lacking...

[Ashitaka-san]

First I wanted to say that the RTR mod is great. I want to thank all those who worked on it as it has brought me back to play some more.

However, I have two major gripes which are the same gripes that I had with the original RTW.

The first gripe is that the units / phsyics do not behave as they should. I am referring to the fact that the game's battles seem to rely more on the unit's numbers (attack values, defense values, etc.) rather than the actual reality of what would work.

For example, I was just in a battle where a small group of the general's heavy cavalry charged head first into my spearmen (can't recall their exact name) that were in phalanx form and facing the cavalry. This should have resulted in the cavalry's death upon hitting the spears. But this was not the case. Instead, the cavalry absolutely slaughtered the spearmen... they literally went through the spears upon charging them and then continued to kill them off once there.

Now, the exact opposite has also happened. I took my heavy cavalry and charged a group of heavy infantry (who had those cool slanted swords... can't recall their names either). Now, the cavalry, with the long spears and the charge, should have absolutely slaughtered the heavy infantry... but, again, the opposite happened.

These types of things really me off as they don't make any sense what-so-ever.

I don't know if this was done on purpose or if it's not possible to actually change the above scenarios (maybe it's more hard coded).

My other gripe is that the AI makes some pretty horrible mistakes with their generals. They have a tendancy to charge right into my army and just get slaughtered. Maybe this is something you all can work on for your next patch.

The main reason I started this thread was to inquire about that first part. Is it just that the mod was not changed or was it not possible to change this flaw in the game design? Or maybe I am missing something?

Again, great work on the mod. It's because of guys, like you all, that I come back and play a game some more.

[econ21]

Suicidal generals is something that modders can't directly control, although RTR tries to make it less likely by changing the initial AI army deployments. Maybe it will get better when RTR ports over to BI? CA may have tweaked it since 1.2.

On the cavalry vs spear/pike type interactions, I can't comment until I get more details - precisely which units were involved, what command stars did the generals have etc.? I think phalanxes are far too vulnerable to cavalry even under RTW 1.5. I have not used phalanxes enough in RTR to comment, although in my experience cavalry is very fragile. Mods can change cavalry vs spear interactions, although again it is a little harder to do under 1.2 as the charge values are bugged.

One point to note is that spears don't get their full anti-cav benefits unless the unit is hunkered down - stationary and braced for impact. In RTW, I've lost several phalanxes marching into town forums etc. But if you keep them stationary and try to block off a street, they can do vastly better.

[Epistolary Richard]

Moved from the Forge.

[Ashitaka-san]

On the cavalry vs spear/pike type interactions, I can't comment until I get more details - precisely which units were involved, what command stars did the generals have etc.? I think phalanxes are far too vulnerable to cavalry even under RTW 1.5. I have not used phalanxes enough in RTR to comment, although in my experience cavalry is very fragile. Mods can change cavalry vs spear interactions, although again it is a little harder to do under 1.2 as the charge values are bugged.

One point to note is that spears don't get their full anti-cav benefits unless the unit is hunkered down - stationary and braced for impact. In RTW, I've lost several phalanxes marching into town forums etc. But if you keep them stationary and try to block off a street, they can do vastly better.

Thanks for the information Simon. Here is some further information in that one situation that I had:

I had Asthetairoi spearmen in phalanx position under the command of a 6 star general. The Asthetairoi themselves were not that experienced although had a full amount of men (80). They were charged by a 4 star general's cavalry whom, I believe, had 2 silver stars of experience. Both had upgraded weapons.

I did not realize that the phalanxes had to be stopped in order to get a better anti cavalry bonus. That may make a difference. However, the phalanxes should get a better bonus to charging cavalry when they are coming head on... no matter if they are moving or not.

Any ideas on that second part I had mentioned? I still don't understand why the heavy cavalry did not smash down the heavy infantry. By the way, the cavalry were Samartian cavalry and the heavy infantry were Bastarnae mercanaries.

Also, does the BI expansion pack change any of the above? Thanks for your clarifications.

[LestaT]

Thanks for the information Simon. Here is some further information in that one situation that I had:

I had Asthetairoi spearmen in phalanx position under the command of a 6 star general. The Asthetairoi themselves were not that experienced although had a full amount of men (80). They were charged by a 4 star general's cavalry whom, I believe, had 2 silver stars of experience. Both had upgraded weapons.

I did not realize that the phalanxes had to be stopped in order to get a better anti cavalry bonus. That may make a difference. However, the phalanxes should get a better bonus to charging cavalry when they are coming head on... no matter if they are moving or not.

Any ideas on that second part I had mentioned? I still don't understand why the heavy cavalry did not smash down the heavy infantry. By the way, the cavalry were Samartian cavalry and the heavy infantry were Bastarnae mercanaries.

Also, does the BI expansion pack change any of the above? Thanks for your clarifications.

Phalanx unit on the move loose the ability to defend properly. Anyway I think RTR works better with huge unit instead of large.

As for the Bastarnae, I believe that is because they were given 2HP which makes them hard to kill. Same like Hypastistes. Even flanking or charge from the rear with cavs wont matter much.

[Crian]

I feel the same way about RTR right now. It's a great mod but what really puts me off is the behavior of the AI. After about a week I actually found myself reinstalling vanilla .

Anyway, I'm sure they'll make a lot of major changes in 7.0, right now I'm playing Darthmod, not as historically accurate I guess but I found it much more fun .

[Romulas]

I'm going to give RTR the "Great Mod" nod as well. Yes we would all like better realism. Lets hope CA improves the AI giving the moders something to work with.

As far as Generals killing themselves off, I always believed that Generals in ancient time and even to include the American Civil War seemed to have a bad habit of dying in battle. While they probably knew better than to run headlong into a rank of spears (mostly). I find the generals unit routing when it gets low on numbers far more aggravating and even less likely.

Romulas

[SomeNick]

I lurrrvvvv RTR! The only gripe I have is that units moove sooo sloooowly.....The cavalry especially stand out.

Battles take nearly twice as long which isn't good when besieging some place.

Other than that a mammoth effort of a mod.