What do you think of Bush NOW?

[Don Corleone]

Not only does he talk to God, a clear sign of insanity with any person who isn't in office or can walk on water, he seems to have no idea as to what a 'budget' actually is, let alone knowing how to balance it. And he uses US soldiers to fight a war for personal glory (upstaging daddy).

So praying is a clear sign of insanity? Wow, I know atheists are trying to stack the deck by claiming you shouldn't be allowed to mention God in public, but this is ridiculous... now a belief system is grounds for insanity... Hmm...

I loathe Bush. Nothing new on the Western Front.

I also feel morbidly fascinated by the foaming racism that seems to make the formerly wavering turn against him.

I resemble that remark. I have no problem with large number of Latin Americans coming into this country. The US is built on immigration, always has been and most likely always will be.

But quite frankly Watchman, I don't think you know the first thing about which you are speaking. State governments are going bankrupt because citizens are being forced to provide social services, health care, education etc. for undocumented aliens that make no financial contribution to society. According to the socialists around here, like Idaho, not paying taxes is akin to treason.

What's more, La Raza and other large Latino groups have made it abundantly clear they are not here to become American. They want the language changed to Spanish (y hablo espanol bastante bien). They want the country to integrate into Mexico. They want to change the culture, the history and the direction of the country.. This isn't what I say, go visit La Raza's website or one of these other groups. No reconquista cultura here, thank you very much.

Or, en los verbos que ellos pueden entender, venga aqui! Venga aqui y trabaje' con nostotros, hage' esta pais ayun mejor. Pero no vamos a hacernos mexicanos. Somos norteamericanos, y norteamericanos vamos a quedarnos.

[Watchman]

*snip*

...and what all that amounts to is still The Evil Comes From The Outside. Not a second of wondering why things are going to Hell in handbasket when in the past immigration generally worked just fine (what now the already-established tended to resent the newly-arrived...), or why the newer arrivals don't feel like belonging in their new environs. Or if the curious issue of presumably reasonably affluent Americans being willing and, one suspects, eager to pay sub-minimum wage to illegals instead of hiring legally to do the same chores might be one of the roots of the problem, or for that matter grounds for some critical self-reflection.

No. It's them damn greaser Mexican illegals. The Evil Comes From The Outside.

Did you know, I understand the spread of that attitude has tended to be characteristic of societies in decline with increasingly insoluble structural problems throughout history...? Other, related, symptoms have tended to include growing tendencies towards xenophobia, isolationism and general, often romantic and nostalgic, introvertism and longing after "better times when all was right"...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I may be totally off-base, but...

Weren't the immigrants that built this country here legally?!

The Irish, the Italians, etc, were they here illegally or not?

[Watchman]

So, why can't the folks who end up coming in illegally come in legally then ? Land of opportunity and all that ?

And I'll snort derisively at anyone who suggests the problem's with them.

[Don Corleone]

So, why can't the folks who end up coming in illegally come in legally then ? Land of opportunity and all that ?

And I'll snort derisively at anyone who suggests the problem's with them.

I have no problems with increasing the number of legally admitted aliens from any part of the world, actually.

There does reach a certain point where our human services infrastructure can no longer keep up though. If everyone is entitled to health care, regardless of their ability to pay (and despite what you might have heard, that IS the law of the land here in the USA), hospitals have to raise costs on everyone else to recoup their losses from treating immigrants.

Prove that you're going to work, pay taxes and be a constructive member of society and come on in. Come for a free ride and I say stay home.

What's more, as I pointed out in the Port Authority discussions... there's no reason for us to be worried that the UAE would allow terrorists in.... if terrorists want in, all they have to do is walk across the Rio Grande like everyone else.

Oh, and by the way.. the Mexican government is a bunch of hypocrites. The rules that are being debated in Congress right now are already on the Mexican books... if the Mexican authorities catch an undocumented Guatamalan, off to jail they go.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Then prepare to snort in derision. If you decide to violate the law in my country by coming here illegally, I don't think you deserve to be a part of the land of opportunity. Allowing illegals in here takes away from opportunity - those of actual US citizens. Why should employers in Texas and California hire citizens, who demand better wages and such? And thus US citizens suffer, in addition to the cost of supporting those who cannot contribute to the nation as a whole.

[Watchman]

Good job missing much of the point. So it's the fault of the illegals that unscrupulous natives woud rather hire them for nominal wages rather than go the legal way ? R-i-i-i-i-ght.

I'd blame dubious business ethics, widespread, myself, in that regard.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'll whole-heartedly agree with you - we need to drop the hammer on businesses that employ illegal immigrants. But that doesn't mean we should let illegal immigrants in scot-free just because Americans are also breaking the law. They should still be shown the door. It's a slap in the face to legal immigrants that we allow this to continue.

[Don Corleone]

...and what all that amounts to is still The Evil Comes From The Outside. Not a second of wondering why things are going to Hell in handbasket when in the past immigration generally worked just fine (what now the already-established tended to resent the newly-arrived...), or why the newer arrivals don't feel like belonging in their new environs. Or if the curious issue of presumably reasonably affluent Americans being willing and, one suspects, eager to pay sub-minimum wage to illegals instead of hiring legally to do the same chores might be one of the roots of the problem, or for that matter grounds for some critical self-reflection.

No. It's them damn greaser Mexican illegals. The Evil Comes From The Outside.

Did you know, I understand the spread of that attitude has tended to be characteristic of societies in decline with increasingly insoluble structural problems throughout history...? Other, related, symptoms have tended to include growing tendencies towards xenophobia, isolationism and general, often romantic and nostalgic, introvertism and longing after "better times when all was right"...

So, we enforce our laws, try to keep our social spending at an affordable level, and we're racist? Beautiful, way to encourage a dialogue...

If I were a Mexican, here legally, I would be more upset about all the illegals than anyone. You're giving the illegals free services that the legal immigrants have to pay for too, and they actually had to stand in line at the embassy to get their paperwork. Hardly seems fair.

For the record, I would imagine left leaning progressives, such as yourself would be the first to stand against illegal immigration. The only reason it's allowed is to artificially force wages down. Your statement about affluent Americans being unwilling to perform menial tasks betrays your ignorance of America. In fact, plenty of people WOULD work in construction, housekeeping, garbage collection, restaurants, etc. if they were paid a living wage. The only people that can live on $6.00/hour are those that aren't paying any taxes. If you're born here, the IRS has you in their ledgers at birth. No such restrictions on the newly arrived undocumenteds.