What do you think of Bush NOW?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'll whole-heartedly agree with you - we need to drop the hammer on businesses that employ illegal immigrants. But that doesn't mean we should let illegal immigrants in scot-free just because Americans are also breaking the law. They should still be shown the door. It's a slap in the face to legal immigrants that we allow this to continue.

[Watchman]

There's actually a pretty simple solution to stemming the influx of illegal immigrants from poorer regions to richer rgions. Two, in fact, although one's really just semantics.

First, just let everyone in legally. No such thing as "illegal immigrant" anymore, right ?

Two, help the poorer regions get rich enough that people no longer want to move out of there en masse in search of better prospects. This is really sort of how like it's kinda pointless to wage "war on drugs" so long it's not economically viable for Colombian peasants to cultivate legal crops instead of poppy in face of competition from massively subsidized US agribusiness and no toll barrier for defense.

Simple in theory. Complicated in practice, all the more so as so far as I can tell the US has been pursuing roughly the polarly opposed policies vis-a-vis the main sources of "illegals" for quite a while...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

First, just let everyone in legally. No such thing as "illegal immigrant" anymore, right ?

You're funny!

Two, help the poorer regions get rich enough that people no longer want to move out of there en masse in search of better prospects. This is really sort of how like it's kinda pointless to wage "war on drugs" so long it's not economically viable for Colombian peasants to cultivate legal crops instead of poppy in face of competition from massively subsidized US agribusiness and no toll barrier for defense.

So do we just send them all a monthly check or what?

If we stopped the widespread employement opportunities for illegal immigrants, we could solve the problem without resorting to the above ridiculous proposals.

[Watchman]

Yeah, well, that's not going to happen without a sea change in the value-sets of Americans then - namely the willingness to cut corners and hire illegals on the cheap rather than obey laws.

I wonder if it's that "social trust" thing again...?

[Don Corleone]

Hmmm. Watchman, you seem to have a pretty sanctimonious attitude about America and our attitude towards illegal-immigrants. That's kinda funny, as Finland has less than 2% immigrants, and of those 108K immigrants, only 25K are non-Caucasian. How about you tend to matters at home, open your own tightly closed borders, then maybe you can lecture us about what a bunch of exploitive, hypocritical bigots we Americans are, hmm?

Not too many immigrants in Finland

[Watchman]

I'm all for it, thankyouverymuch. I'm also equally pissed at the "bad immigrants" discussion going on around here, in part as I'm well aware of just how out of proportion the complaints are.

The relevance, however, eludes me, and this makes me suspect a "red herring" evasion.

My point, anyway, is that you guys aren't following the causal chains through. You're taking the illegal immigrants themselves to be the disease, which they aren't. They're the (or rather, a) symptom of deeper problems. And those never go away merely by slamming the symptoms, no matter how convenient or righteous or expedient that may seem.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm not premed or anything, but I don't think you encourage the symptoms of the disease, either.

[Watchman]

Addressing the symptoms, while often necessary to a greater or lesser degree, rarely rids you of the actual disease.

Never, really, when speaking of social phenomenoms through medical references.

See what I mean ?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Well, we should criminalize the employment of illegals (or enforce such legislation if it exists) while deporting illegal immigrants - treating both the root and the symptoms.

[Watchman]

*BREEEP*
You forgot the biggest root of them all.

[Divinus Arma]

Someting that bothers me in this entire international discussion about American immigration policy, and it comes from our own leaders...

This business about "jobs Americans won't take".

If this were the case, then American does not have a lack of labor, it has a lack of virtue.

Since when did any job qualify as "unworthy" of Americans? I understand that agriculture labor in California has been predominantly hispanic since anyone can remember. But that is an indication of exploitation, not of "unworthiness".

I am pretty insulted by the entire concept of there being jobs that Americans won't take. Who deterines this and what is the criteria? Hard labor? It sets a very dangerous precednt for ethnocentrism in this country when our citizens belive they are "above" certain jobs.

I think this is political elitism at its worst. And anybody who promulgates this perception is simply facilitating the exploitation of a race while adopting an ethnocentric nationalist perspective- a dangerous combination with historical precedents in tragedy. Anyone with this perception is either evil or ignorant. There is no gray area on this one.

[Don Corleone]

Again, this 'jobs that Americans won't do' business is a myth.

You put enough money on the job, any job, and Americans will line up to do it.

What they should really say isn't that Americans won't do it, they should say "that Americans won't do it for the price that's being offered".

You offer somebody 50K to haul garbage or dig ditches all day, and more impotantly cut off welfare, you'd be shocked by how willing Americans are to do these jobs. Importing Latins to do these jobs simply holds the cost of labor artificially low, end of story.

[Don Corleone]

Again, this 'jobs that Americans won't do' business is a myth.

You put enough money on the job, any job, and Americans will line up to do it.

What they should really say isn't that Americans won't do it, they should say "that Americans won't do it for the price that's being offered".

You offer somebody 50K to haul garbage or dig ditches all day, and more impotantly cut off welfare, you'd be shocked by how willing Americans are to do these jobs. Importing Latins to do these jobs simply holds the cost of labor artificially low, end of story.

[Divinus Arma]

Totally agree Don. Illegal immigration is exploitation of an entire people.

That said, we must criminalize employers and expand opportunities for immigration, but do so for ALL the people of the world- not just Mexico. Now that is fair immigration policy.

[Xiahou]

Again, this 'jobs that Americans won't do' business is a myth.

You put enough money on the job, any job, and Americans will line up to do it.

What they should really say isn't that Americans won't do it, they should say "that Americans won't do it for the price that's being offered".

You offer somebody 50K to haul garbage or dig ditches all day, and more impotantly cut off welfare, you'd be shocked by how willing Americans are to do these jobs. Importing Latins to do these jobs simply holds the cost of labor artificially low, end of story.

Amen brother. 'Jobs that Americans wont do' is offensive to me. As you say, the reason Americans arent taking the jobs is because of pay. Now, when you have illegal aliens doing the job for pennies on the dollar you create another problem- they can't afford their own services, such as healthcare. So what you really have, is companies who employ illegals getting what amounts to tax subsidies. They're paying sub-minimal wages to their workers and then shovelling Social Security, Medicaid, ect costs onto legitimate employers and tax payers.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Amen brother. 'Jobs that Americans wont do' is offensive to me. As you say, the reason Americans arent taking the jobs is because of pay. Now, when you have illegal aliens doing the job for pennies on the dollar you create another problem- they can't afford their own services, such as healthcare. So what you really have, is companies who employ illegals getting what amounts to tax subsidies. They're paying sub-minimal wages to their workers and then shovelling Social Security, Medicaid, ect costs onto legitimate employers and tax payers.

Hit the nail right on the head.

[Major Robert Dump]

Okay so now Mr Will is saying illegals raises the average wage by 11%, but that doesnt necessarily conflict with the idea ofothers that non/lowskill wages are reduced by 8%...you can have the overall average go up while the bottom tier drops. The fact of the matter is lowskill labor is the backbone of an economy, because it frees up people to do/spend on other things. What I dont understand is how the social services vs tax input argument is being altogether avoided by the elected officials. We have SS reform shoved down our throats, yet we import poverty at the rate that the worker to retiree will be 2:1 in 10 years, whereas it it 4:1 right now, and it wa something like 40:1 in 1950.

I'll take my chances in investing, even if it means renting until I'm 50. I simply do not trust my government to maintain a cohesive balance anymore.

[Watchman]

I find myself agreeing with Xiahou, and even applauding his insight.

...I probably need to eat something, I think my head's getting a bit dizzy.

[Divinus Arma]

You know guys, the arguments that Don Corleone, Xihaou, and myself have just put forth are all the exact the same arguments we have been espousing all along. Even left-leaning media outlets have published studies in their op-eds that illegals consume more than they contribute. And look at the number! 400,000 a year! And consider the children that they have just from an economic perspective in social services used.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, but the difference is you and I are a pair of racist, viscous exploitave thugs that hate Mexicans. Xiahou apparently hit every talking point (we must have missed one), so he is enlightened, and making progress.

[Watchman]

It rather helps he's willing to explicitly state Americans (or rather, the willingness of too many of them to profiteer illegally by employing illegals) form a part of the problem, you know.

Sort of like how it adds considerable credibility to a statement in a discussion about prostitution to make it clear you remember it's a transaction involving at least two people...

[Proletariat]

It rather helps he's willing to explicitly state Americans (or rather, the willingness of too many of them to profiteer illegally by employing illegals) form a part of the problem, you know.

Maybe they didn't state it because it's implicit. Of course it isn't other illegals hiring these people, it's the scumbag Mom n Pops that MRD did a great job of pointing out as the sacred cows in this whole mess.

[Watchman]

Oh yes, there was very much implicit in their posting, but it wasn't *that*...

[Don Corleone]

If you actually need to hear the words out of my mouth, Watchman, fine. I have a lot more animosity and vehemence against the people that are on the demand side of this equation, and I would happily suspend every license said entrepreneur needs to hold in order to do business could it be proven that they were in fact knowingly hiring illegals. Who the hell did you think I meant when I said 'they' are allowing immigrants into the country to keep the price of labor low, their friends already here in the States?

Oh yes, there was very much implicit in their posting, but it wasn't *that*...

Don't be so spineless. If you have some names to call me, call me them. Just because I happen to disagree with you about a problem my country is facing that you don't happen to know all that much about is no excuse to go around with thinly veiled insults, and at the very least, you could show some moxie and come right out and say it.

[Watchman]

I looked through the thread and found you posting exactly one rather vague reference to the employer-side problem. And a lot of complaining of how all these nasty illegals who contribute nothing to the economy (cheap labor apparently doesn't count...) will bring about the downfall of the US economy, or at least most of what passes for social security over there.

The moral grounds on which you adopt such an offended tone seem to elude my powers of perception. I'll consider it a plus you haven't been going on about immigrants bringing crime or somescuh though.

[Don Corleone]

I neither need, nor desire, your approval of my views in any way, shape or form. In case you've missed the topic of the thread in the progress of your inquisition, it is about George Bush's approval ratings. You chose to turn it into a chance to call people that disagree with the proprosed amnesty program a bunch of racists.

If it makes you feel better to label everyone that disagrees with you in blanket negative terms, ala no-amnesty=racist, be my guest. But for all your self-anointed credentials as being the resident expert in psychology, American politics, and now immigration policies between Mexico and the USA, it doesn't speak very highly for the strength of your arguments that you feel the need to resort to such parlor tricks.

And, in my final words on the matter, prior to dismissing my position, go do a search on how much of the state budgets of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and North Carolina are dedicated to providing health, educational and social services to undocumented (i.e. non-taxpaying) immigrants. Oh, but I guess I'm a rascist for bringing that up. You're not worth discussing matters with. Call me any name you like, I'm done discussing things with you.

[rory_20_uk]

Surely America of all countries is one that is not defined by a single race.

Is this another classic example of getting nationalists and racists mixed up? After all it is illegal immigrants of any and every race, age colour and creed that are included in this.

[Watchman]

It is difficult to avoid the impression the focus is overwhelmingly on the LatAm ones, though.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I don't know, but I suspect the overwhelming number of illegal immigrants in the US are from Latin America. And those illegals from other places should be dealt with in the same manner.

Our politicians don't, of course - someone pointed out in some thread about pols sucking up to illegal Irish immigrants on St. Patrick's day.