Am I bovvered?

[Samurai Waki]

And, is it legal to wear a sword or carry a wrench when walking in the city? Something makes me doubt it (and that you'd be arrested in England for having a weapon).

Crazed Rabbit

In Montana its legal to carry a handgun...

[caravel]

@Al Khalifah: So true, and there's the "got a spare fag" pesterers as well (fag = british slang cigarette). Or the "excuse me have you got a spare cigarette" (when they put on the false politeness). What amazes me is the idea that someone would carry around a spare cigarette with them, just in case someone hanging around on a street corner may need one... When I inform them, truthfully, that I don't smoke, and as such wouldn't be carrying around a spare in case somone may need it, they usually mutter "bet ya 'ave, ya jus don won a gimme one". Followed by other derisive remarks.

[Spetulhu]

That chav attitude is getting common elsewhere too. We had a young man do his school-related work practice with us, some 500 km from his home town. The distance wasn't any real problem for him as he could live with relatives here. But he constantly complained about the cost of all this. The school system and related support wasn't paying him very much for the training period. One month in particular stood out. He told us how the social services of his home town paid his rent and his mother paid his electricity bill since he was so poor. Then he started testing the new sound system in his car, a full kit worth close to 1000€ if you bought it all from honest dealers.

Many other chav-related habits too. Need to take a leak? Here's as good as anywhere. Finished your burger? Drop greasy papers on ground. And the fuzzy moustache, of course.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

yet if you approach them to try and prove them wrong, they scatter like the pigeons in Trafalger Square.

If only...

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Tribesman]

Now I am really confused .
It appears that there are large groups of scum , without respect for law , culture , property or anything else, that are sponging off the state and intimidating people who are not like them or who are like them but not quite like them .
Yet they are not illegal immigrants , they are not the children of immigrants ????
I could have sworn that (going by a few recent topics here) it was only the bloody foriegner migrants that acted like this .
So does this mean that the small numbers of migrants that people seem to be so worried about who act just the same as these scum are in reality fitting in perfectly to their host nation and embracing the local way of life after all ?

[Kralizec]

You'll always have anti social trash even with no immigration, it's just that now they've gotten a "foreign flavour".

[Tribesman]

Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris.

So in that case there wouldn't have been major slums that were rampant with crime , drugs , rape and prostitution , where the police wouldn't even go before there was illegal immigrants and cool ghetto culture .

Well bugger me sideways GC , you had better rewrite all the history books to make them fit with your simplistic views .

[Watchman]

Around here (well, on the NW coast really) we had gangs of young, idle and bored farmers in flashy duds (for the time) waving knives around, getting drunk, fighting in public and frightening good honest folk already in the early 1800s when nobody even knew what "illegal immigrant" was supposed to mean...

Mind you, eventually the afflicted region vented its excess population pressures overseas as emigrants into the United States and to lesser extent Sweden, and when the Civil War came around it was one of the areas near wholly devoid of an unhappy rebellious underclass.

Go figure.

[Watchman]

Okay, there's something missing from that theory now. Why does, or even would, that appeal to the "native" youths ?

[Tribesman]

But the ones at fault here are the minority that decides it does not want to adapt, and decides they're just gonna sit around doing criminal stuff while syphoning money from the state. This appeals to youngsters who are from the state in question, and there you have it.
That makes no sense at all GC .
If it existed before the immigrants , and will exist without the immigrants then what has it got to do with immigrants ?
Its the chicken/egg thing innit .

[Kraxis]

Okay, there's something missing from that theory now. Why does, or even would, that appeal to the "native" youths ?

Bullies have always been impressive.
There is a reason for the 'Big Dog and Me-Too' idea.

When I visit my GF mother in Brøndby and I hear the native boys (who are a little riff-raffy) talk, they have a destinct accent similar to that which the troublemakers most often have. And of course they use arabic words now and then (Wolla! and Yalla used most often).
The normal natives of the area simply don't talk that way, or dress like them for that matter.

Indeed it seems the coolness factor does play in.

[Watchman]

I think the concepts you're looking for run along the lines of "perceived notoriety", "exoticism" and "standing out".

In the absence of foreign influences, no restless group of youths ever had any problems generating its own equivalents.

[Watchman]

And the reason I'm categorizing you as a racist is your unwillingness to see the "riff-raff" phenomenom has nothing to do with immigrants in particular and everything to do with already or independantly extant common social dynamics and cause-effect chains.

[Watchman]

Yes, that's indeed quite exactly the kind of attitude I was talking about. 'Sides, "Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto" sounds pretty generalizing to me nevermind smacking of flawed analysis characteristic of the intolerant position...

[Watchman]

Walking off in a huff of righteous, martyred indignation isn't exactly the most graceful way of admitting defeat.

It's also pretty damn boring.

Just give me some decent arguments that don't have gaping holes in their causal constructions (eg. the unexplained leap in "this appeals to youngsters..."), contradict your earlier statements (eg. "I label *some* immigrants" contra earlier, clearly plural, "immigrants come and...") or contain other such glaring faults of argumentation, and this might yet turn into a meaningful discussion.

[Spetulhu]

First off, you're statement about plurals is ridiculous. I said immigrants, yes. Does that mean all immigrants? Only someone like you would draw that conclusion. The only expanding on "immigrants" I did after that was to narrow it down by saying "some" immigrants. You're counter-arguments are completely out of context.

Eh? How does your present explanation have anything to do with your claim that immigrants bring with them a culture of crime that natives adopt? You just did a full 180, mate.

[Papewaio]

So are you saying that immigrants commit more crime on average then locals?

[Incongruous]

Oh yes.
It's quite obviuos.

[Spetulhu]

Re-Read my post. It's the ones who refuse to work, and refuse to assimilate to their new country that bring the crime with them.

"Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris."

That's the one I meant. We have freeloaders and work-shy people even without immigrant ghettos. It's not the immigrants that cause it, but I admit they take part in it.

[Papewaio]

That's a loaded question. And completely irrellevant. If they're commiting crime on a large scale at all, it's a problem.

No it is a very relevent question. But it has a very complex answer.

Ghetto's are not only bad they are good... they provide a structure for things to flourish, the good and the bad of the ethnic community.

Immigration, it is when the immigration outstips the resources of the communities to intergrate them. This is a function of both the intiative and resourcefulness of the communities themselves and of the immigrants.

[Scurvy]

Immigration, it is when the immigration outstips the resources of the communities to intergrate them. This is a function of both the intiative and resourcefulness of the communities themselves and of the immigrants.

nicely put

[caravel]

"Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris."

Anyone that doubts this should try to find an alternative explanation for the majority of 'chavs' adopting an Afro-Carribbean "yardie" style of speaking, and in some cases fashion also. This applies to both anglo-asian and white chavs.

[English assassin]

Anyone that doubts this should try to find an alternative explanation for the majority of 'chavs' adopting an Afro-Carribbean "yardie" style of speaking, and in some cases fashion also. This applies to both anglo-asian and white chavs.

Corrolation isn't causation. Mods rode Vespas but you can't blame the Italians for the traditional bank holiday riots.

[yesdachi]

So are you saying that immigrants commit more crime on average then locals?

There certainly seems to be a correlation between increased crime and increased immigration.

Here is a great article I found on the topic. It would also be interesting to anyone keeping up with the “Racism in Sweden” thread.

[caravel]

Many chavs emulate Afro-Carribean immigrants, with regards to their speech and accents to some degree, some more so than others. That is a fact. I didn't state that Afro-Carribean immigrants are the cause of any particular crime because Chav's are emulating their behaviour.

Chavs wear Burberry but no one is blaming that company for any crimes commited by chavs either. I feel that many people are missing the point, and only glancing at the surface of this problem. They are afraid to speak up about this because they are so conditioned into appearing politically correct. This is a culture issue. The chav "culture" is based on a misconcieved emulation of many conflicting ideals. They copy yardie speak because they think that is the cool way to be. They obviously see Afro-Carribean gangs as superior and feared. People will often try to emulate those they feel inferior to. They look at at these as cool gangsters, and part of a pimp and ho culture, that gain "respect" and want to be the same. They are gangster wannabees, but don't exactly walk about dressed like the Krays do they? They dress in American brand sports gear and speak similarly to the descendents of Afro-Carribean immigrants that have lived in the UK since the 70's, they in turn are emulating the turns of phrase and slang used in gangster rap. Everything about their appearance is rap/hip-hop, even if they're not into that, which most of them aren't. The problem with this is that they're often completely racist. Most importantly their culture has nothing much in common with British Culture.

[Tribesman]

Re-Read my post. It's the ones who refuse to work, and refuse to assimilate to their new country that bring the crime with them.

But since there already locals that do not work and do commit crime then the immigrants are in fact assimilating perfectly in their new countyr , it is just that they are assimilating to the bad part not the good part , it isn't something they bring with them , it is something that is already there .

Poor apologists. You'll see the light when this sort of riff-raff comes to affect you personally.
.... ...actually that is almost too pathetic for laughter GC , do you think people live in a bubble or atop of an ivory tower because they don't share your nonsensical views on immigration , crime and assimilation ?

[Watchman]

Irate youths (or for that matter other groups) who want to stand out and look all cool and notorious and rebel have since God knows when never failed to adopt the dresses and behavior pattterns of other groups regarded as "dangerous", "notorious", "exotic", "exciting", "outsider" and whatever. Should they find themselves without such models, or should the example of the models available be passé for some reason, they have always displayed considerable ingenuity in employing extant symbology, details of dress and whatever, usually in greatly exaggerated forms, to the same ends.

This is one of those little behavioral patterns that tends to repeat itself the world over wholly irrespective of the exact details of the group doing the "standing out" gig, or their sources of inspiration for their particular brand of "tribal colours." In the Fifties restless youths around here imitated their American equivalents, with some inevitable local quirks thrown in; their peers nowadays have swapped the greased hair and jeans for faux hip-hop image, but it is rather difficult to see anything else than cosmetical differences in the phenomenom.

The equivalents in early 1800s Norrbotten, being for obvious reasons without such urbane and international sources of inspiration, had to make do by adapting aspects the traditional local manner of dress and emphasizing certain points as means of group identification and cultivating the "notorious" image.

Medieval university students were infamous for forming armed gangs that roamed the nighttime streets and often engaged in drunken brawls, usually with weapons. The distinctive look they had already from the traditional academic wear...

Same old shit. It's trying to pin the present-day incarnation of this perennial phenomenom on immigrants and/or black ghettoes that singles out the racist thinking, or at best severely insufficient analysis.

Ditto for excessively simple and tendentious takes of the supposed causal link "immigration = crime." Do some real thinking on the topic instead of spouting such populist BS, please. Crime, poverty, the tendency of immigrants to fall into both more often than is proportionally the case with the natives, and other such topics are way more complicated than that.