A question about access to holy sites

**rory_20_uk** · 03-29-2006, 12:37

Out of all the hills in all of Palestine the same one get used for those three events??? What are the odds?

I imagine that the restriction of people can be construed as allowed or forbidden depending on what you read where - and if that's not enough just interperet something and say who wrote it meant the site youhad in mind.

Look at that Christian who was nearly killed in Afghanastan. They got himoff saying he was medically ill which is a cop out really, but since there was no other solution it was the best one could hope for. I've read scholars who have taken views that he should die and that he did nothing wrong - based on different sources.

As usal, God isn't the problem. He just needs to take more time and effort choosing the people who speak on his behalf. IMO he needs to "kick upstairs" those that have misunderstood the message.

**Kanamori** · 03-29-2006, 13:45

Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

some prominent members of the Chief Rabbinate banned Jewish access to the mount a long time ago

I didn't think that any sort of Judaism was this centralised. I wonder what is keeping any sort of Jew from saying, "I disagree, it's this way." Does anyone know if reform/reconstructionist Jews are free to enter as they please? Because they have thrown out most of the Talmud and all of the rules that go along with it, following the end of the Temple and Rabbinic period.

**English assassin** · 03-29-2006, 13:58

Treading carefully here, (not least because I am about to put my Navaros hat on) I don't see this as all that surprising. I can't speak with any knowledge for muslims, but from what I remember of the bible its pretty clear that there is one god (ie, "God", conveniently for those of us with poor memories for names) that believing in Jesus as the son of God is not an optional part of going to heaven, and that God wants us to behave in certain ways (basically, to be nice to each other, which in fairness to God is not a bad idea, and we really ought to try it at some point.)

My point is if you rock up and announce you believe in "Allah" or "Yahweh" and not "God" then you might be a very nice person but its pretty clear from the bible, not that you are going to hell exactly (since the bible points out that men do not know who is going to hell which certain reverends might do well to remember) but that you've made some pretty serious wrong choices. Its all very unfortunate but then we don't make the rules etc etc....

For all his drawbacks I always felt Navaros couldn't be faulted either for insisting that this really was what following a religion meant, or for taking it to the logical conclusion. You can temper that with a bit of Christian compassion but that's about it.

On that basis the wonder is that anyone was ever allowed in to worship their "false" gods, not that the authorities are now banning Christians and jews.

**Taffy_is_a_Taff** · 03-29-2006, 14:07

Originally Posted by English assassin

My point is if you rock up and announce you believe in "Allah" or "Yahweh" and not "God"

I thought that Middle Eastern Christians tended to call God, Allah too.

**English assassin** · 03-29-2006, 14:11

Originally Posted by Taffy_is_a_Taff

I thought that Middle Eastern Christians tended to call God, Allah too.

Very wise of them...

**Taffy_is_a_Taff** · 03-29-2006, 14:26

Originally Posted by English assassin

Very wise of them...

**Kralizec** · 03-29-2006, 14:47

Originally Posted by English assassin

For all his drawbacks I always felt Navaros couldn't be faulted either for insisting that this really was what following a religion meant, or for taking it to the logical conclusion. You can temper that with a bit of Christian compassion but that's about it.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you really knew me, you would now my Father also.
John 14:6-7

Sounds clear to me, so I'll have to agree. Frankly I don't see how you can believe that only parts of the Bible are right, instead of the whole book being entirely fiction, or entirely true.

Except that I clearly recall Navaros saying that "torah believing" jews and "quran believing" muslims also go to heaven, and he has frequently defended muslim fundamentalists.

**Reenk Roink** · 03-29-2006, 16:41

Originally Posted by Kralizec

Except that I clearly recall Navaros saying that "torah believing" jews and "quran believing" muslims also go to heaven, and he has frequently defended muslim fundamentalists.

Quotes? Really?

I knew Navaros supported the Danish cartoon protesters because of their "conviction" but never saw him say anything along those lines...

Originally Posted by English Assassin

Very wise of them...

Well, it's more of just following proper Arabic vocabulary...

**Kralizec** · 03-29-2006, 16:47

I know Nav longer then most of you, from a totally different forum in fact, where he did say something along those lines

**Don Corleone** · 03-30-2006, 05:45

So, back to my original question... why?

Dairush basically said "well, you should be allowed but you're not, get over it".

Let me put the question another way... if this is the way Islam views 'getting along with others', is there any reason we shouldn't take you at the word of the Waqf types that your true mission is spreading Sharia by any means necessary?

I asked what it would take to say a Christian prayer at the place Jesus was condemened to die. I got told, 'Tough luck, buddy, it's the way it is". Yet, I'm a bigot if I suggest that Islam isn't as tolerant as Christianity or Judiasm... both of which allow Muslims to worship in areas they control, as the Muslims see fit. Hmmm.....

**Byzantine Mercenary** · 03-29-2006, 15:33

Originally Posted by English assassin

Treading carefully here, (not least because I am about to put my Navaros hat on) I don't see this as all that surprising. I can't speak with any knowledge for muslims, but from what I remember of the bible its pretty clear that there is one god (ie, "God", conveniently for those of us with poor memories for names) that believing in Jesus as the son of God is not an optional part of going to heaven, and that God wants us to behave in certain ways (basically, to be nice to each other, which in fairness to God is not a bad idea, and we really ought to try it at some point.)

My point is if you rock up and announce you believe in "Allah" or "Yahweh" and not "God" then you might be a very nice person but its pretty clear from the bible, not that you are going to hell exactly (since the bible points out that men do not know who is going to hell which certain reverends might do well to remember) but that you've made some pretty serious wrong choices. Its all very unfortunate but then we don't make the rules etc etc....

For all his drawbacks I always felt Navaros couldn't be faulted either for insisting that this really was what following a religion meant, or for taking it to the logical conclusion. You can temper that with a bit of Christian compassion but that's about it.

On that basis the wonder is that anyone was ever allowed in to worship their "false" gods, not that the authorities are now banning Christians and jews.

well, god is god is god, Allah is the arabic for god so i may refer to god as Allah if i so wish, we (muslims jews and christians) all worship the god of Abraham with the same name ''God'' in our respective languages, this is the one area that i find Navros correct as i too think that good muslims and Jews will proably go to heaven (but as you so rightly said i can say nothing for sure) this is a different matter to other religions, Islam has fought polytheistic religions as cristianity did, from the beggining and indeed it was not the christians that were refered to as unbelieveing infidels but those of polytheistic religions. Now there will be some christians who will say that i won't go to heaven im sure, but that does not mean that we do not worship the same god!

I don't think god is looking for a reason to send you to hell i think he is looking for reasons to bring you to heaven, im sure that there are muslims that have served god better then me!

i always remember what CS Lewis wrote in the last of the Narnia books as the world ended and a worshiper of the ''devil'' character in the book came to Aslan (the christ figure) Aslan said that the good this man had done was not in service of the devil but actually in service of him and all the Evil that was done in the service of Aslan was actually in service of the Devil character. This reflects how i feel on the matter and jesus did say what ever you do for the least of your brothers you do for him.