Most Pointless Battle

[Kagemusha]

Quote from Samurai-archives.com:

NAGASHINO
28 June 1575 / Mikawa / Siege and Battle

Takeda Katsuyori (12,000)
VS
Oda Nobunaga (30,000)/Tokugawa Ieyasu (8,000)

In the summer of 1575, Takeda Katsuyori led his army into the Tokugawa domain and laid siege to Nagashino Castle, a locally important strongpoint that had changed hands a number of times in the past few years. The castle's defenders managed to resist the initial Takeda attacks and, thanks to the heroic efforts of a certain Torii Sune'emon, managed to alert Tokugawa Ieyasu of their plight, and the latter convinced Oda Nobunaga to commit to an all-out battle with the Takeda. When faced with the appearance of a numerically superior enemy force, Katsuyori, over the objections of his veteran commanders, opted to attack. Thanks to superior firepower (as many as 3,000 arquebuses were used in the battle) and good positon, Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu crushed the Takeda attack and relieved Nagashino Castle. Most of the famous Takeda generals present were killed in the battle and the offensive power of the Takeda was severly crippled (having lost around 10,000 men). Oda was now free to fully turn his attentions elsewhere, leaving Ieyasu to contain the battered Takeda. /Quote

I think this battle that lead in the downfall of the Takeda Clan was complete foolishness from Takeda Katsuyori.He could never fit in his great fathers Takeda Shingens shoes and in the end that resulted into destruction of the Takeda clan.

[Rosacrux redux]

Almost all battles during WWI in the estern front, after the stabilization of the front in 1914. Pointless bloodbaths for virtually no gain (tactical, strategical or at least considerable land gains).

I would definitely not call Nagashino "pointless" at all... on the contrary, it was a battle of incredibly high stakes and the outcome pretty much determined the future of not only the Taked clan, but also a significant part of the subsequent events in Japan.

Also, I wouldn't call any of the "last stand" battles as 'pointless', as they are valuable for strategical reasons (boost of morale, delay of enemy force, political reasons, motivation etc. etc.).

[matteus the inbred]

Almost all battles during WWI in the estern front, after the stabilization of the front in 1914. Pointless bloodbaths for virtually no gain (tactical, strategical or at least considerable land gains).

I would definitely not call Nagashino "pointless" at all... on the contrary, it was a battle of incredibly high stakes and the outcome pretty much determined the future of not only the Taked clan, but also a significant part of the subsequent events in Japan.

Also, I wouldn't call any of the "last stand" battles as 'pointless', as they are valuable for strategical reasons (boost of morale, delay of enemy force, political reasons, motivation etc. etc.).

I agree, Nagashino, while a battle that the Takeda needn't have fought, was probably one of the more significant battles of the period, strategically and technologically.

I nominate Fredericksburg, ACW 1862. Gen. Burnside is put under pressure to pursue the retreating Confederates following Antietam, and attacks them in entrenched positions while getting his army across the Rappahannock. His troops are duly slaughtered in large numbers (some 12,000 casualties, compared to only around 5,000 Confederates) in a futile series of assaults. End result, Lee's army kept the field and Burnside withdrew to his former position and was replaced by the equally disastrous Joe Hooker. It basically achieved nothing except bloodshed.

(A similar example of this would be New Orleans 1812, fought after the peace treaty was signed!)

[Kagemusha]

Almost all battles during WWI in the estern front, after the stabilization of the front in 1914. Pointless bloodbaths for virtually no gain (tactical, strategical or at least considerable land gains).

I would definitely not call Nagashino "pointless" at all... on the contrary, it was a battle of incredibly high stakes and the outcome pretty much determined the future of not only the Taked clan, but also a significant part of the subsequent events in Japan.

Also, I wouldn't call any of the "last stand" battles as 'pointless', as they are valuable for strategical reasons (boost of morale, delay of enemy force, political reasons, motivation etc. etc.).

I disagree.It was pointless and stupid from Katsuyori he wasted Takedas army on an insignificant battle.Over an castle that wasnt even necessary to take to move further in the Togukawa domain.Also all of Senior Takeda retainers were against attacking the prepared and outnumbering Oda/Togukawa forces. Ofcourse it wasnt pointless for Oda or Tokugawa becouse it allowed To Oda to launch their forces on fully to Take over The Central Kinai region of the Country and also for Togukawa to take most of the Takedas eastern Domains. But as a last stand it wasnt Takedas last stand.The last stand of Takeda was at Temmokuzan 1581.Where Katsyori finally took his own life.

[Scurvy]

the somme? huge losses on both sides and changed very little

[matteus the inbred]

the somme? huge losses on both sides and changed very little

maybe, but had it worked, the Allies would have broken through decisively? actually, I withdraw that comment, had Burnside won at Fredericksburg (however impossible it was for him to do so) the ACW might have ended!
So yeah, I agree with Scurvy, the Somme is a good example. One eminent German WWII tactician called WWI trench warfare an 'tactical and strategic aberration from warfare theory' or something similar...

I think Nagashino is disputed here because it had consequences that changed the balance of power in a fairly short-term way and brought about the downfall (albeit delayed) of a major clan. Perhaps 4th Kawanakajima, for all its interest as a tactical battle, might be a good choice? I don't recall that it had any significant consequences for either side, despite massive casualties. What do you think, Kagemusha?

[Rosacrux redux]

Kagemusha

My take on the significance of a battle - as matteus' - considers also the consequences. And Nagashino, although a battle Katsuyori didn't have to fight at that point of time and space (he had to eventually confront Tokugawa and Oda at some point though, that was pretty inevitable) had major consequences for the history of Japan. So, it cannot be called "pointless". Had Takeda clan won, the gain would be enormous (as was the loss in the defeat).

[Kagemusha]

Kagemusha

My take on the significance of a battle - as matteus' - considers also the consequences. And Nagashino, although a battle Katsuyori didn't have to fight at that point of time and space (he had to eventually confront Tokugawa and Oda at some point though, that was pretty inevitable) had major consequences for the history of Japan. So, it cannot be called "pointless". Had Takeda clan won, the gain would be enormous (as was the loss in the defeat).

Rosacrux,I believe we only have a different wiev point,when you have taken the strategig point of wiev i took more of the tactical approach.From different wiews good conversations tend to start.

Matteus about the 5 Battles of Kawakanajima.(The 4th was the biggest one).I believe that the battles were not pointless but the opposing armies and Daimyos were so even matched in their capabilities that neither Kenshin or Shingen could gain the upper hand.The Shinano province as a major crossroad between the Northern, Eastern and Western provinces was strategically so important that the war was almost constant in that province.
Now that i think more i think infact its pretty hard to find totally pointless battles becouse when one looks deeper on the reasons that provoked those battles things start to show up.
WWI is not the strongest point of my knowledge but wasnt the battle of Gallipol a pretty useless slaughtering of commonwealth troops?

[Csargo]

the somme? huge losses on both sides and changed very little

Well most of the battles in the WWI were pretty pointless huge loss of life with almost no ground taken horrible

[Papewaio]

Well most of the battles in the WWI were pretty pointless huge loss of life with almost no ground taken horrible

Except when Aussies where in charge!

[Taurus]

Almost all battles during WWI in the estern front, after the stabilization of the front in 1914. Pointless bloodbaths for virtually no gain (tactical, strategical or at least considerable land gains).

Agreed. Thousands...Millions, of lives lost and for what? The gain of a few metres of land here and there.

[Brenus]

“La Suffel”, last battle of the Napoleonic Wars, won by the French General Rapp, the 10 days after Waterloo, 6 after Napoleon’s abdication...