What spec of machine do I need?

[Beirut]

Does post count determine credibility on this website?

Credi-what-aty? Never heard of it.

I'm surprised its taken this long for J.A.G. to get the ban.

Now, now. The tech forum supports nerdiness only - no nefarious noodlings about other member's musings.

[Xiahou]

When you already got a decent AGP system (benchmarks will blow it away, but what matters is your own requirements and experience) and just need a little boost, buying a new AGP card is the more economic solution (short, med or long term depends on what you do now and next year). Buying a faster and cheaper/more expensive PCI-e card also requires at least a new PCI-e mobo.

I fell into an unfortunate trap on my last upgrade. I thought my P4 system was adequate, so I got an upgraded AGP card. Unfortunately, I found that I was still held back by system bottle-necks, so I upgraded my proc/MoBo but was forced to stay with AGP because of my shiny new AGP card. My system works great now, but next time I upgrade Im going to be forced to buy both a MoBo and video card at the same time. Ouch.

[TosaInu]

That's very nasty Xiahou. Upgrading is full of pitfalls.

I was thinking of a fair system (different for each user) with an outdated /entry level graphics card: something like a GeForce3. It will run games, but a GF 6600 GT is a cheap solution to boost your new games just a bit more (to a level that may be fine for just you).

[Beirut]

I fell into an unfortunate trap on my last upgrade. I thought my P4 system was adequate, so I got an upgraded AGP card. Unfortunately, I found that I was still held back by system bottle-necks, so I upgraded my proc/MoBo but was forced to stay with AGP because of my shiny new AGP card. My system works great now, but next time I upgrade Im going to be forced to buy both a MoBo and video card at the same time. Ouch.

I'm in the same position, but by my choosing.

I'm up to an AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP. There's not much more I can do with this setup. I can up the CPU to an AMD64-3700 (754 pin) and add another GB of RAM, but then I hit a brick wall. But is that really a bad thing?

An AMD64-3700/2GB/7800GS, regardless of better PCI-E performance, is still a smoking hot system and will tear through today's (and tomorrow's) games very nicely. Even a year from now it will be a solid system. So by next winter or spring, I either give the system to my woman for her work PC (a helluva nice office machine!) or sell it, get a decent price, then jump on the PCI-E train and buy hardware that's nine or twelve months old, down in price, and yet still lightning fast.

The balance is up to the individual based on his needs, desires, cash, and, perhaps most importantly, what games he wants to play. For me, as long as my system can smoke through the IL2 series of flightsims, I'm more than happy. I don't need to upgrade until the IL2 guys release Battle of Britain in a year or so. By then, hardware like the FX-60 chip and 7900GTX SLI cards will be significantly cheaper.

Something else that's important, at least to me, is to avoid incremental upgrades. I would rather wait and spend a lot and see a huge leap in performance than spend less and barely notice. I only up my system when the result will make me sit back and go "Wow!" For instance, my video cards went from an MX440 to a Ti-4200 to a 9800Pro to a 7800GS. Each time I turned the machine on and saw what the new card would do, I sat back and marvelled at the sight.

When I turn on my new rig next year, I'll be getting the Wow!" factor again.

[orangat]

........
When talking about new complete systems: PCI-e is the future, several customers want that (the fastest, the best, the latest), the previous generation parts are then used to assemble cheap entry- up to midrange systems. Some suppliers will make it very cheap, just to get rid of their old stock.

Cheap PCI-e systems may be the better bang for bucks, but when it costs an extra $75, some people will think again.

PCIe is not the future, its is the current de-facto standard. There is virtually no difference in the prices of pci-e vs agp mb's and certainly not to the tune of $75.

Socket 939 pci-e mb's outnumber agp mb's by 12:1 on newegg. AGP didn't get very cheap but supply just dried up. Socket 754 is hanging on only because of AMD's bargain basement Sempron line.

[orangat]

I'm in the same position, but by my choosing.

I'm up to an AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP. There's not much more I can do with this setup. I can up the CPU to an AMD64-3700 (754 pin) and add another GB of RAM, but then I hit a brick wall. But is that really a bad thing?

An AMD64-3700/2GB/7800GS, regardless of better PCI-E performance, is still a smoking hot system and will tear through today's (and tomorrow's) games very nicely. Even a year from now it will be a solid system. So by next winter or spring, I either give the system to my woman for her work PC (a helluva nice office machine!) or sell it, get a decent price, then jump on the PCI-E train and buy hardware that's nine or twelve months old, down in price, and yet still lightning fast.
......

Did you buy these 3 - AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP together recently?
Because if you did, it wasn't the smart thing to do.

The 7800GS is already having a hard time with BF2, FEAR, Oblivion let alone tommorows games. Of course turning down HDR, AA, AF, resolution would produce a nice framerate but I wouldn't consider it a smoking hot card for games.

Face it, the 7800gs is gimped. It has 8 less pipes than the 7900GT (4 less than the 7800GT) and has a slower clock speed and is approx 40% slower for the SAME PRICE.

[TosaInu]

is the upgradable interface for future needs

PCIe is not the future, its is the current de-facto standard.

I didn't mean to say PCI-e is the future as in expected to be released next year, but tried to tune in with your post.

There is virtually no difference in the prices of pci-e vs agp mb's and certainly not to the tune of $75.

Sorry to have lost you again, I was talking about complete assembled systems. Some people don't buy parts but a whole computer.

[orangat]

I didn't mean to say PCI-e is the future as in expected to be released next year, but tried to tune in with your post.

Sorry to have lost you again, I was talking about complete assembled systems. Some people don't buy parts but a whole computer.

Are complete assembled AGP pc's vs pci-e cheaper because the components are slower and older? Are you comparing apples to apples here?

Edit: It wouldn't be appropriate to compare the price of a cheaper Sempron AGP pc with built in gfx with a AMD64 pci-e pc.

[Lemur]

I didn't want to be the one to tell Beirut that AGP is dead. I was hoping he would hear it from a relative, someone close who could offer comfort and sympathy.

I'm sorry you had to find out this way, Beirut. I wish it could have been broken to you more gently.

[TosaInu]

AGP is dead.

I have AGP and it appears to function. When this message can be read, I'm also tempted to say that my 2+ years old CPU is running .

[Lemur]

Having trouble reading that, Tosa ... could you re-type that on a modern machine?

Heh, point taken.

[Beirut]

Did you buy these 3 - AMD64-3000/1GB/7800GS AGP together recently?
Because if you did, it wasn't the smart thing to do.

No, I didn't buy them all together.

I had an AMD64-3000/512/9800Pro a week ago. Those components were all six or nine months old at least. I just added the 7800GS card and the other 512 RAM within the last few days.

I didn't have the money to buy a new SLI PCI-E MB (might as well get SLI as it looks to the future) and a new CPU (no point in buying a new socket 754 MB, so that means a new CPU), and a new PCI-E Video card. Plus the $450 I already spent getting my woman a new LCD screen as well as myself a 512 stick of RAM. I had some money to spend, but not that much.

So, for the price of the 7800GS and 512 stick of RAM, I saw a significant increase in performance in my AGP machine. Now, y'all can beat me over the head about this till the cows come home, but in the end I found an affordable solution that gave me a very noticeable increase in power. I spend 75% of my game time flying, and with the new hardware I was able to access graphic settings that I could not before, due to Pixel Shader=3 requirements, and I got a big increase if FPS even with the higher graphic settings.

PCI-E is a lovely thing. In a year I'll have a nice PCI-E system I think, but it is unrealistic to write off AGP as being cavemen technology when available AGP systems can meet and surpass almost 100% of all new game requirements. Not the on-the-box requirements, but the real world requirements. Fine, they may not handle F.E.A.R. at 1600x1200 with 16xAF and 8xAA and max settings, but I'll bet less than 10% of the members here have systems that can. Hell, I played through F.E.A.R. with my old system and it looked and played very nicely.

Now, in a year when I get a new smoker of a PCI-E system, I can off my old rig as a whole and get a fair price. And the guy who buys it will still be able to play most games very nicely. Especially if I put in an AMD64-3700 and another GB of RAM during the summer. You'll be hard pressed to tell me that even in a year an AMD64-3700/2GB RAM/7800GS system will be obsolete. Especially for the sim market where we play the same game, with mods and add-ons, for years.

I'm no troglodyte, I'm just not willing to write off AGP hardware if it can be bought at a good price.

[Xiahou]

I have AGP and it appears to function. When this message can be read, I'm also tempted to say that my 2+ years old CPU is running .

My linux box is over 6yrs old and handles a plethora of tasks, including occasional gaming, without trouble. As long as you dont want to do cutting edge gaming, you can get by with pretty outdated machines for most computing.

[Papewaio]

Meh! For some reason I don't worry about playing RTW at max resolution... because I'm into the strategy side of the game so the neat graphics of elephants charging into guys at close up is not what I'm there for... my system easily handles the huge units, massive battles etc.

It was built 3 and a half years ago... if it was a car it would be 35 years old.

Its just a P4 2.53GHz, 512MB Ram, 64MB Graphics card + Audigy Gold sound card.

Now bang for buck.

This is an AGP system. For around $100 I can upgrade to a 256MB AGP Graphics card.

But to upgrade to a PCI-e, I would have to get a whole new system, as it would be pointless bringing across any of the components. That would cost considerably more then $100.

[orangat]

No, I didn't buy them all together.
I had an AMD64-3000/512/9800Pro a week ago. Those components were all six or nine months old at least. I just added the 7800GS card and the other 512 RAM within the last few days.

I didn't have the money to buy a new SLI PCI-E MB (might as well get SLI as it looks to the future) and a new CPU (no point in buying a new socket 754 MB, so that means a new CPU), and a new PCI-E Video card. Plus the $450 I already spent getting my woman a new LCD screen as well as myself a 512 stick of RAM. I had some money to spend, but not that much.
.......

Then your purchase made sense since you didn't have to upgrade the mb and cpu. But that was NEVER my point, since my first post in this thread, I was talking about NEW agp pc's. Do you still disagree and say getting a new agp mb/card still the way to go? Would you still recommend getting a agp mb and 7800gs?

The crux of the matter is - why go with agp when it is a dead end and pci-e doesn't cost extra. The x1600pro and the 7800gs are probably the last agp cards and have poor performance for the money compared to their pci-e versions.

The 7800gs doesn't even play FEAR at 1280x1024 well unless AA/AF is turned off. The optimal res is 1024x768 which is adequate but not a card I would call 'hot' for current and future titles since its only a little faster than the 6800ultra. Its not bad by any means but I won't recommend it for new systems.

[Beirut]

Then your purchase made sense since you didn't have to upgrade the mb and cpu. But that was NEVER my point, since my first post in this thread, I was talking about NEW agp pc's. Do you still disagree and say getting a new agp mb/card still the way to go? Would you still recommend getting a agp mb and 7800gs?

If the price was right, yes. It's all about the money. Otherwise, if the hardware is the same price, then yes, PCI-E would be the better choice.

I'm of the opinion that we'll see a significant drop in AGP hardware and system prices. That will open up a new level of performance for people who can't afford the hot new stuff. Someone who's been using a PIII with a 64 meg card, and there are a lot of them, might soon be able to up to a brand new AGP system like, for example, a low end AMD64 CPU with an X800XT for not a lot of money. That fellow is going to see a huge increase in performance. Again, though, it's all about what deal he can get.

[orangat]

If the price was right, yes. It's all about the money. Otherwise, if the hardware is the same price, then yes, PCI-E would be the better choice.

I'm of the opinion that we'll see a significant drop in AGP hardware and system prices. That will open up a new level of performance for people who can't afford the hot new stuff. Someone who's been using a PIII with a 64 meg card, and there are a lot of them, might soon be able to up to a brand new AGP system like, for example, a low end AMD64 CPU with an X800XT for not a lot of money. That fellow is going to see a huge increase in performance. Again, though, it's all about what deal he can get.

Still haven't answered my question about a new AGP pc with the 7800gs? The fellow with the PIII agp pc looking to upgrade was NEVER my point and it is a strawman argument since I was talking about new pc's from my very first post on the thread. Besides, someone surviving all this while with an old PIII 64Mb card isn't a typical gamer and is probably going to be cpu limited anyway.

And who are you trying to kid about cheap agp x800xt systems? That ship has sailed. The cheapest x800xt agp card is around $300 - the price has gone UP because of low availability. the pci-e version is $220 at newegg and the faster pci-e x850xt is $165. The much slower AGP ATI XL/GTO/GTO2 also have very poor availability and are relatively expensive. On the Nvidia front, both the AGP 6800gs and 7800gs are gimped cards which are slower but cost just as much as their pci-e equivalents.

Owners of AGP systems who bought their pc's 1-2yrs ago are already screwed as it is for mid-range/high-end gaming cards. I'm just stating the obvious truth from cold hard facts, not some whimsical scenario about plunging prices for previous gen parts.

[Beirut]

Owners of AGP systems who bought their pc's 1-2yrs ago are already screwed as it is for mid-range/high-end gaming cards. I'm just stating the obvious truth from cold hard facts, not some whimsical scenario about plunging prices for previous gen parts.

Hmmm, then I guess you agree to disagree about agreeing to disagree.

Since we're on the subject, I agree to disagree that AGP owners are screwed for mid to high-end cards. I think there is many a gamer who would view the available ATI and Nvidia AGP cards as desirable indeed. Like me. You may not, given your budgetary or technological viewpoints, and that is obviously your right, but I'm sure some others would be more than happy to have one of the higher end AGP cards in their rig.

[orangat]

Hmmm, then I guess you agree to disagree about agreeing to disagree.

No. Its very simple really. I said from my first post in this thread that getting a new agp PC is pointless because pci-e components are not more expensive and are sometimes better but you disagreed. link

....Granted, PCI-E is the future, but right now there is enough life left in the AGP architecture to warrant buying an AGP system if money is an issue...

Do you prefer to keep evading the question or answer whether you would recommend at this point a new agp mb with a 7800gs instead of going pci-e?

Since we're on the subject, I agree to disagree that AGP owners are screwed for mid to high-end cards. I think there is many a gamer who would view the available ATI and Nvidia AGP cards as desirable indeed. Like me. You may not, given your budgetary or technological viewpoints, and that is obviously your right, but I'm sure some others would be more than happy to have one of the higher end AGP cards in their rig.

That was NEVER my point. Owners of these AGP systems don't have any choice but to buy lower performing agp cards for the same price that pcie owners pay for.

[Beirut]

Do you prefer to keep evading the question or answer whether you would recommend at this point a new agp mb with a 7800gs instead of going pci-e?

Hmm, could have sworn we've been here before.

If the price is right, yes. It all comes down to a case of cash, a matter of moolah, a question of quotients, a dingling of dollars, and a pinching of pennies.

I understand your vehement insistence in looking forward, and I cannot argue with your core statement that PCI-E is better, faster, less filling, and able to leap tall building in a single bound, but that does not detract from the argument that if an AGP system can be gotten for a good price, then it is a viable option for many people. Most, if not all, of the games out today can be run very well with AGP hardware.

You may call it whimsy if you wish, but computer parts do go down in price as new technology becomes available. That means that if someone is willing to stay a year behind the technological times, as I do, they can have a good gaming rig for a good price. As PCI-E gets bigger and bigger, AGP systems will obviously drop in price more and more.

As far as I know, there isn't a game out there right now that an AGP system cannot handle well.

I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all. I'm just saying I'm at least a little bit right.

[Xiahou]

That was NEVER my point. Owners of these AGP systems don't have any choice but to buy lower performing agp cards for the same price that pcie owners pay for.

AFAIK, there's virtually no difference between current PCI-e cards and the same model in AGP format. My x800XL would perform no better (everything else being equal) if it was sitting in a pci-e slot instead of a agp 8x one. If you're saying AGP shoppers dont have the same high-end choices as PCI-e one's Id agree. But, you seem to be saying that an identical agp card (same price) would perform significantly worse than a PCI-e one.

For the record, I dont understand how hardware discussions can get so heated.

[orangat]

AFAIK, there's virtually no difference between current PCI-e cards and the same model in AGP format. My x800XL would perform no better (everything else being equal) if it was sitting in a pci-e slot instead of a agp 8x one. If you're saying AGP shoppers dont have the same high-end choices as PCI-e one's Id agree. But, you seem to be saying that an identical agp card (same price) would perform significantly worse than a PCI-e one.

For the record, I dont understand how hardware discussions can get so heated.

Heated? Hardly, it was all a lighthearted conversation what with all the Rhino pics. You must get scared easily.

And did you even read the thread? The agp 6800gs and 7900gs are gimped. They cost just as much as the pci-e versions but are using older cores(nv40 for 6800gs), have slower clockspeed and less pipelines.

The agp x800xl costs $300 while the pci-e version is much less at $180(newegg). And getting either version is pointless since its getting scarce and the faster pcie x850xt-pe is available for about the same price. While both agp/pcie versions are basically the same things, the agp card is more expensive.

Beirut, I've laid out all the facts. AGP is not getting cheaper, it is getting scarcer and dearer. For example, even if the price on the agp 7800gs dropped by 40%, it will only have achieved parity with what pcie owners have _today_. And that is not assuming the price of the pci-e 7800gs have not dropped as well.

[Xiahou]

And did you even read the thread? The agp 6800gs and 7900gs are gimped. They cost just as much as the pci-e versions but are using older cores(nv40 for 6800gs), have slower clockspeed and less pipelines.

That's the fault of the Nvidia's card, not the architecture. You cant blame the AGP bus for Nvidia crippling it's cards- buy ATI.

The agp x800xl costs $300 while the pci-e version is much less at $180(newegg). And getting either version is pointless since its getting scarce and the faster pcie x850xt-pe is available for about the same price. While both agp/pcie versions are basically the same things, the agp card is more expensive.

I dont know what cards you're comparing, but they must be a different brand/specs. If you can produce a link Id like to see it. I found an x800xl on newegg for $184

Here's another example:
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB PCI EXPRESS (Retail) --- $264.87
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB AGP (Retail) --- $264.87
link

Identical cards, identical prices, identical performance.

[orangat]

That's the fault of the Nvidia's card, not the architecture. You cant blame the AGP bus for Nvidia crippling it's cards- buy ATI.

Don't bring up a strawman argument. This issue is nothing to do with agp/pcie specifications. Regardless, if Nvidia/ATI cripple agp versions, its still not a good buy. My point is that mid-range/high-end agp cards are either non-existant or scarce and expensive.

I dont know what cards you're comparing, but they must be a different brand/specs. If you can produce a link Id like to see it. I found an x800xl on newegg for $184
Here's another example:
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB PCI EXPRESS (Retail) --- $264.87
ATI RADEON X1600 PRO 512MB AGP (Retail) --- $264.87
link
Identical cards, identical prices, identical performance.

It must've just came in today and its OOS already lol. I'm sure lots of desperate agp owners must've cleared it out.

What is your point about the x1600pro? Its even slower than the x800np/6600gt. There are tons of low end cards for agp/pcie which wasn't my point in my previous posts. The faster pcie x1600xt is available for $150(newegg) but guess what? No agp versions for the x1600xt.

I don't have to provide links for the gimped agp 6800gs/7800gs. You must obviously be out of touch if you didn't already know what is common knowledge. You can look up the specs in newegg.

[Xiahou]

Don't bring up a strawman argument. This issue is nothing to do with agp/pcie specifications. Regardless, if Nvidia/ATI cripple agp versions, its still not a good buy. My point is that mid-range/high-end agp cards are either non-existant or scarce and expensive.

A strawman isnt any argument that runs counter to yours. Please, let's not go down that road.

What is your point about the x1600pro? Its even slower than the x800np/6600gt. There are tons of low end cards for agp/pcie which is not my point.[/QUOTE]So, what is your point?

Owners of these AGP systems don't have any choice but to buy lower performing agp cards for the same price that pcie owners pay for.

You said that- and you were wrong. That is my point.

Talk about attacking arguments that someone didnt make (strawman)- I ceded in my original post the more high-end cards are available for PCI-e users. My only disagreement was with your above quote, which I demonstrated to be innaccurate. You can buy identically priced AGP/PCI-e cards that will give you identical performance. AGP users are not forced to pay the same price for a lower performing card. Guess Im done here.

[orangat]

If you read the thread, the first poster is unhappy with his 2.53Ghz pc and wanted some suggestions for MTW2. My entire conversation with Beirut was about whether a new agp system for the OTS is still viable. The x1600pro is a low-end card which is not suitable for a new gaming pc.

And you can look up 6800gs and 7800gs specs to see how totally wrong you are.

[Xiahou]

If you read the thread, the first poster is unhappy with his 2.53Ghz pc and wanted some suggestions for MTW2. My entire conversation with Beirut was about whether a new agp system for the OTS is still viable. The x1600pro is a low-end card which is not suitable for a new gaming pc.

Well, I was mainly picking up on the strand of discussion that I mentioned earlier.

More to the original question, "viable" is a tricky word. Indeed, a person could buy a new mid to high end system based on AGP and pay the same price they would for an identical PCI-e system. But, I would not reccommend AGP to someone who is looking to buy both a new motherboard and video card.

I can vouch for that fact that an AGP system can run all current games adaquately, but if you want 'top of the line' or want your future upgrade paths kept as open as possible, you'd want to go with PCI-e.

[TosaInu]

If you read the thread, the first poster is unhappy with his 2.53Ghz pc and wanted some suggestions for MTW2.

To answer DragonCrusader:
You seem to want two things, one is playing MTW2. I've read an interview where a CA official (Dutch PC Gameplay, issue 118, page 21, projectleader Bob Smith) commented on a release date for MTW2, the answer translates roughly too (boy, English to Dutch and back to 'English' ): We can't say for sure. When things go according to schedule, it could be late this year. Very maybe!

So, it's at least 6 months away from now, but it can be longer. MTW2 is going to use the RTW engine as far as I can understand now. But it will be a very updated RTW engine. We're unsure how the performance will be compared to RTW or RTW/BI.

Unless you have a vague idea about very special dutch computer future needs, it's not a good idea to buy parts or a whole system for a game that will be shipped half a year away or even might be released months later. The same pennies you spend now on a gamble, will buy you much more when MTW2 is actually released. And you will likely be sorry for buying anything now, when you see all the yummie (maybe even cheaper) then.

On this issue, my advise is: wait until a few weeks before a sure release or even better, try your current rig on it first, read about problems people may encounter or special requirements, then judge and buy.


Your second point is wanting better performance now for RTW BI.
You're going to have to break your piggybank now. When you're not careful, you may void the wisdom of waiting and spending too much money, as you may have to buy a whole new system a half+ year from now. Some things to think about: when you upgrade, can you either sell or make good use of your old PC (yourself or family, give it away for charity perhaps)?

From what I recall: RTW isn't all about graphics, performance wise. I mean, it's not the bottleneck and huge boosts like in FPS games won't be achieved. That's not to say that RTW won't gain when you can upgrade the gfxcard.

The CPU looks fine, of course there are better even far better ones, but it will do. The 256RAM is most likely the biggest bottleneck. 1024 will be good, but 512 may be the economic solution and will certainly boost your system.
I had 512 RAM (special reasons), 2 banks left, but couldn't fill those two with an identical pair a year+ later, due to very special, but not dutch, RAM issues with the mobo (was unknown -> that's a risk with being new hardware ). RTW and your system will run fine with 512, you may have to tweak services a bit and optimise swap though.

You mention higher settings for your graphics. You have a PCI GF MX. I lost count after all the marketing tricks with graphiccards, but it's a lower end GF 4 afaik (wouldn't surprise me if it were actually a GF3), and a PCI version too. My PC is about the same configuration as yours, except it's a self assembled system.
My system had a cheap mid/high-range GF4 (I was lucky to find this cheap
deal in a local shop when the world was plagued by the noisy expensive GF5 vacuum cleaners) . I replaced it only last year with a midrange GF6 as I wanted to see more in some FPS games. The GF6 will boost RTW.


My advise: don't upgrade for future games, by the time the games are released (sometimes after months or even years of extra delay), there is better and faster hardware for the same price and you can have better idea what you actually need.

Double your RAM, 1024 may be better, but it doesn't really look as if you really need that now.

When you have upgraded your RAM, you, DragonCrusader, may already say: wow! Be very happy, you're done for today: you'll have MTW2 in a year or so and can start saving every penny for a very nice new system then (or another economic solution and save for next year ).


If you still need a bit more, get a GF6 card. You can buy yourself an AGP GF6600GT for about $150 or an AGP6600 for less than $100 and even ~$65 for a GF6200. All those cards are available in 128 and 256 RAM. 256 RAM will be better, but your current PCI may have only 64, uses a slower path, has a slower GPU and does not support DX 9. The GF660GT is the fastest of the three, the GF6200 the slowest, but any of them is good. I wouldn't spend extra for 512 MB or even consider a juice wasting 6800. At any rate a possible thing to really consider: can my PSU handle it? All these card require more, I doubt Dell put an overkill PSU in your system.

When you don't have an AGP slot, but really need better graphics, you may have a look at something like Gainward FX5200 128 RAM. Warning: this is not a topcard by any means and it may even not be all that spectacular compared to what you have now.
The card is around $65,-, uses only one slot and is passively cooled -> silent and likely doubles your amount of videoRAM.

As always: it's your computer, your work, your leisure time, your experience, your decision and your wallet. Good luck and be happy.

[TosaInu]

ATI makes very nice cards indeed, some My Hulk Hogan is better than your Captain America stories go around.

But it indeed seems true that some cards have nastier problems with games, than just not being able to make 102 frames/sec but stuck at only 101.

My system originally had a ATI 9700PRO. One of the best deals at that time (the 9800PRO is better, but also was more expensive had a pricetag I was not willing to pay).

It was great, I had never seen graphics better than that and while my current GF6 outperforms it in the artificial benchmarks and produces a higher fps in the games, I consider the ATI 9700pro to be better. The yellow pixels on the desktop cured every depression, the bimpbups in UT: it's really my Hulk.

But. It didn't work for many games I played. All specs were there, but it didn't work. A full week of driver and directX juggling later, I swapped it for a GF4. That card worked with all games.

I do not know todays status, but in the past ATI had the better hardware, NVIDIA the better drivers. When your games don't run, it doesn't matter to have the best hardware.

[orangat]

Well, I was mainly picking up on the strand of discussion that I mentioned earlier.

More to the original question, "viable" is a tricky word. Indeed, a person could buy a new mid to high end system based on AGP and pay the same price they would for an identical PCI-e system. But, I would not reccommend AGP to someone who is looking to buy both a new motherboard and video card.

I can vouch for that fact that an AGP system can run all current games adaquately, but if you want 'top of the line' or want your future upgrade paths kept as open as possible, you'd want to go with PCI-e.

You picked up a sentence and took it totally out of context.

And you are totally wrong about mid-highend agp cards. They either don't exist or are extremely scarce or are crippled pcie versions.

Your lone example of a $184 x800xl is completely flawed because that card is superceded by the much faster (pcie) x850xt that is available for $180 shipped from newegg. No reasonable person would get the much slower x800xl which costs more then the x850xt. Try getting an agp x850xt at a comparable price.